FRANTIC FOR FOOD and general bad behavior & new dog
needless to say sam was over weight. Not too terribly, but an extra 8-10lbs.We went to the philadelphia OES picnic and got advice on how much to feed him from parents with sheepies about the same size, but at an ideal weight (a cup in the morning, a cup at night, a better brand of dry dog food plain) along with a warning I took to heart about his health/longevity suffering from the carrying of a few extra pounds. We hadnt been keeping constant food in his bowl, but we also had been feeding him what his past owners said they usually did, which was more then what was reccomended, 2/3rds more! So the may 20th picnic a few weeks later was the catalyst to the downsizing of his meals. Since then, over the period of the past few months (so nothing unhealthily drastic) hes dropped the few extra lbs, and looks great. He gets more excersize living here, and has a generally more exciting life. BUT his attitude towards food has changed to the point that he eats SO fast when he gets fed that he'll puke it up. And when i say eating fast i mean ALL OUT WAR with the bowl, everything in the area, knocking the cup out of your hand, hitting his head on things, etc. He FLIPS out. This wasnt his mannerism before at all because he knew there was always food there.. Ive had to break his meals into half a cup early in the morning when i first get up, then ill eat, do whatever, and give him the other half an hour or two later, and the same with dinner, and this way he keeps it down and the frantic eating lasts for all of five seconds. BUT theres been some bad behavior that his old owners swear up and down have never reared their ugly heads before. Sam eats socks, underwear, (this means even clean clothes!) peices of plastic, random strange things... to the point that ive changed my laundry basket, trash cans, put my roomates on guard about everything they own, and generally act with this in mind at all times. When ive left a trash bag or two of NO kitchen/food trash in the utility room, even a bag of construction trash once, and another time used charcoal, ive paid for it dearly because its been ripped up, strewn and dragged everywhere, turning my white and grey sheepie entirely grey, sticky, brown, etc. Ive washed him FOUR times in the past three weeks. A new roomate moved in and left a big rubbermaid bim of spices/kitchen stuff that didnt seem so "foodish" and sam BROKE it to get to a package of NORI (the seaweed paper that goes around sushi,) a bag of flour? etc. Also, this week hes figured out how to knock my $120 heavy duty trash can over (http://www.simplehuman.com/products/tra ... round.html) which is VERY difficult to knock over because of how its designed, and also has a heavy lid with a lifting mechanism, etc. I dont believe i could guard the trash better with out LOCKING it. In the past hes done the ripping up in protest of being alone for only a couple hours (im usually home a lot, esp. during the summer but school just started last week,) if his dinner was an hour late and no one was around, etc. Tonite he did it with people home, that were on the front pourch for ten mins! AND he had already had his dinner! THEN pooped in the house while they were cleaning it?! This new roomate also has a dog, which is smaller then sam & very submissive, reasonably well behaved (at least very well trained) and usually crated/in my roomates room/with my roomate. The food thing has been a problem for months so i dont think thats because of the new dog (though i fear that element may increase his fear that hes STARVING,) but today sam pooped in the house when he had been out FIVE TIMES?!?! (and pooped twice!) and i believe that is in protest of the new dog... Im so fed up, mopping the kitchen three times this week for this, etc for a dog that at his old was some kind of angel and has just been insanely mischivious here. I can only change so many things and its really difficult to scold him for these things because mr.kilcommens said unless you catch the dog in the act it has no idea what its being punished for, etc. I know the loud cola can wouldnt work either because he is NOT afraid of ANYTHING when hes spazzing out about food. if you have ANY advice on what to do about this please let me know! I dont really see a solution in crating since the eating the odd things, much of the bad behavior, is done while im home, and sometimes in the same room with him (though i never catch it as its happening, aside from once, and he was baffled when i took the sock from him.) I know that giving him an endless supply of food would stop this behavior but thats not healthy. Ive given him a lot of bones, a kong, etc. to try to distract him too and that has been bad: he EATS them, flipping out on them with the same frantic behavior, and therefore cannot have rawhide or anything somewhat edible. thanks! |
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| Hugs to you, this must be so difficult to deal with everyday. But I think your gut instinct us right that the new dog, stress of you being back in school..more alone time for Sam.
I think it is a combination of stress and boredom. If he has noone to play with, esp since he's doing this while you are at home...he could be asking for attention. This may seem obvious but is the other dog neutered? Sam may be territorial...have they played together yet? How do they get along? What is the new roommate like...does he/she like Sam? Does Sam like that person? Is he getting extra walks? Extra playtime..he might need more food considering you said he is more active..he may truly be hungry, try increasing it a little. Maybe hand feeding, or rewarding after obedience lessons...a portion of dry kibble....make him use that brain for good behaviour. If you could, have you looked into doggy daycare 1-5 times a week while you are in school? Definitely give him something to do all day. Good luck to you and Sam, I sure hope this is a phase. |
| How much is an ideal weight for him? Also, what are you feeding him (brand)? 2 cups of food doesn't sound like much. I know most OES eat 3-6 cups a day depending on their size, and that keeps them at a healthy weight.
If he is getting more exercise with you, his caloric requirement will be higher, even if he needed to lose weight. If it's not a really good quality food, then even 6 cups a day may not be fulfilling his nutritional needs. |
| Four things jumped out at me right away: Bored, hungry, untrained and energetic.
Bored- Buy him some of those "thinking" toys to play with...the unbreakable ones. Wet his kibble and freeze it in an X-large Kong and give him his meals that way. Make him work for it. Hungry- 2 cups of even good quality food seems a low amount. Maybe for while he is losing weight, but if he is where he should be you can now increase it or he will continue to lose. How much does he weigh, and how tall is he? My Dixie is small, weighs 58 pounds, and eats 2 1/4 cups a day. Bosley is 70 pounds and eats 4 1/2 cups a day...Plus they gets some treats. Untrained- He may not know how he is supposed to behave in the house. He needs training to get him into some kind of routine and taught how to communicate with you. Training will help him to be more secure and help you to understand him. Postive obedience classes will help immensely. Take him out for good workouts every day. Whether it is jogging, or playing fetch with a ball, or at the dog park to wrestle with other dogs. A tired dog is a good dog. Bear in mind that more excercise will require an increase in food. This boy needs structure and some work to do, in order to get him under control. |
| im sorry, but i do not agree with you at all:
He IS trained. He is a very actually a very good dog aside from these occassional things, which were really much more occasional until this string of incidences this week. part of that was just learning to knock the trash can over (as we all know sheepies are soooo smart, and once they learn....) As i said he was a perfect angel according to the older people that had him. While i was very upset when i wrote the first message, he is VERY good, aside from thsi food related problem. as i said, he HAS a kong, and PLENTY of toys. ive tried that as a solution the first time he ate a sock: but get this, its not boredom because he doesnt rip up these things/play with them, he just EATS them. whole. yes. an entire pair of my (clean! ha!) underwear! im standing in the kitchen with him, and he goes in the laundry room (he liked the floor in there) comes back out, looks at me, and just PUKES UP THE ENTIRE PAIR, complete! Its been this every time with a sock, paper, etc. Its not a ripping, its just eating. Hes not particularly interested in anything that is not food, and food toys vanish in an instant. entire raw hide bones, greenies, etc. so thats not it at all. If i put ANYTHING in his kong he flips out on it for two mins and then its done. everyone that i spoke to at the NEOES picnic advised me on the amount of food. I did not believe it, it seemed like far too little, but more then a couple breeders told me this. EVEN HIS VET AGREED! Hes NOT a high activity dog even when im hyping him up and running him around. Keep in mind its taken him since early may until now to lose 8 lbs and get to a healthy weight. Hes NOT starving, and ive been told that by plenty of other people. Increasing it another half cup or perhaps even a whole one since his weight is back to a good level is a suggestion im perfectly willing to listen to, but he was overweight at three cups a day? (what his old owners said they were giving him. but as i said, there were human cookies envolved, sympathy feedings regularly, no REAL limit on food/treats, etc.) Im feeding him Nutro because it came highly reccomended. hes DEFINATLY NOT energetic, no where did i say that. I DID say hed been out five times that morning, poking around as he does. Hes a VERY VERY VERY CALM DOG. He DOESNT play, chase, etc. and the only thing he runs after is me, and i run back and fourth with him for plenty of time numerous times a day, as well as taking him on walks. With another dog in the house hes actually getting out and getting walked twice as much. A few times a week we go to the dog park, and hes usually the dog that is simply sniffing the ground very calmly. Hes NOT bursting at the seams. He lived with ELDERLY PEOPLE before me and trust me, hes getting MUCH more amusement and action here (as i also noted above.) Hes a people dog, and generally his interests are just sitting around with his human, putting his head in your lap. When i have him outside trying to get him to chase me, run around, etc. he'll often just go back in the house on his own because he just doesnt want to. he'd rather go sleep after a few mins of that. Hes not bored, and lonely, and hyper, etcetc. I read my dog training books, i work on training with him, i take him on car rides almost anytime im going somewhere and he can come along to(he enjoys that a lot,) I take him to the park, i walk him NUMEROUS times a day, he has an amazing social life (and has gotten SO much more friendly/social since i got him,) lots of toys, etc etc etc. If i was so neglectful on so many fronts i dont think id be up worried about a way to constructivly prevent this, posting on this board about it. --------to the other folks: Its not that my class schedule is a problem. Im gone for an hour class in the middle of the day, and another two or three hours in the evening depending on the day. I live with three other people who all love sam, and who sam also greets and follows around when im not home, and basically SOMEONE is ALWAYS home. hes a pretty lucky guy in that way. and i honestly cant even recall what i was told his ideal weight is. A really nice guy in NEOES whos had a lot of sheepies that lived to be 17/15, etc. said that i should be able to feel his ribs ever so slightly when i press and rub his side. He was definatly over weight at the time, which wasnt even up for debate, and so, as i said, his weight hasnt even had a DRASTIC change. Its actually been pretty slow and gradual. thanks for your help and encouragement! im thinking more along the lines that this has to do with his mental idea of food, a survival drive. i had a cat whos bowl was always full, and it ate when it was hungry and kept a good weight. a roomate with a cat moved in, and suddenly the cat would clear the bowl, eat like a maniac. it got overweight and i had to do portion control, which meant that it became even more fearful that it would starve! i really feel like sam is nervous when there isnt reassuring food in his bowl, hence the other people saying hed whine when it was empty. when theyd put food in it, they said he wouldnt eat it, he just wanted it there. when i went to spend time with him, hed leisurely walk up to the bowl, sniff it, maybe eat a peice and walk away. this could not be further from this current behavior and while i dont want to allow him to be overweight, i think his attitude towards food has been altered so much that i dont think feeding him more would even calm him. |
| Wow melissajfrost, no need to be offended. If you reread your post
maybe you will see why you got the replies you got. I thought very similar things to Bosley's mom. Are you sure when you heard 1 cup it wasn't really meant as 1 scoop? Just a thought, maybe there was a misunderstanding. Both my dogs are eating 3-4 cups a day now that we are walking more and neither are overweight at all. I think most of our dogs here get 2 or more cups a day, if I am not mistaken. Did you tell us your dogs size and age? I must have missed it. Please don't get angry at us for trying to help. You gave us info and we gave answers. Maybe we aren't right, but maybe these are things you should at least consider before you discount our replies. Shellie |
How old is Sam? Sometimes it is just a puppy/teenage thing till they mature. They seem to mellow around 2 ish 
With his obsession for food, you can try grated raw carrot in with the dry, good for maintaining a correct weight without all the calories. So whatever amount you are feeding him, add half a cup of the grated raw carrot and mix through the dry. Fills them up a bit more and helps there without them gaining too much weight, satisfies them with a fuller feeling in their tummys. 
I have an 11 1/2 year old that I do that with as she is obsessed with food too
Pooping in the house is a strange one, has that been happening only recently? Maybe it might have something to do with the new doggie in the house and sam is just a bit out of whack at the moment. Hopefully that will calm down for you all. Be patient with him, try and teach him a command to go potty outside, I do with the girls and when they go outside I say "go twinkle" and they do. Have to laugh as they squat automatically whether they need to go or not. Poop too with that command. Good to teach them "Go Potty" they are clever and learn quick and also learn that outside is the place to potty. Best wishes with sam and I hope he settles down a bit for you. You are trying hard and maybe there is a few issues that need a bit of patients with him due to maybe how he was brought up in his previous home. He sounds like a real character. |
| sam is three. Hes not small for a sheepdog, but hes not the hugest.
its one cup in the morning, one cup at night. previously he was receiving about that and then the pity feedings (when he whined about the bowl being empty though he wasnt hungry), then 1/4 of canned food. i was told to drop the canned (his teeth were REALLY bad from it ) and just go with the one cup in the morning one cup at night. i was shocked by the amount and kept requestioning and clarifying. this is really what i was advised of by numerous people and his vet. That two cups a day should be sufficient for a low activity kind of dog, especially with his weight problem. im completely willing to up his food amount within reason,because he is at a good weight right now. I just dont think any amount of food will change the way he spazzes out at food. he hates carrots! i tried that, and also val reccomended green beans and he hated that too. |
| i have reread my post, and i know what i wrote. it does say that he has a kong, that he goes out often and had been out SO much today before that incident, etcetcetc.
i do want constructive advice. im putting this out there for that reason. I just wasnt prepared for that heavy list of neglect and it was offensive to me, especially because i think i did clarify a lot in what i wrote out, and much of it contrasts that analysis. im not trying to start drama, be rude, etc. but im not real warm with unconstructive blanket statement declaring me an unfit mother, esp.when i do so much. sorry. |
| Try adding poached chicken flesh, not the skin as that has fat init. You could also try a tin of Tuna or sardines, both fish and chicken will not pile the weight on if he is not at all interested in veggies for bulking up the quantities without the calories, for giving him a fuller feeling.
I feed the same amount of dry too 1 cup in the morning and one cup at night but with the carrot, veggies or the fish and chicken. So he is getting enough there as the dry he is on is packed with lot's of nutrition.
Just hope he settles a bit for you with the food issues that he has. |
| Wow, that was a heck of a response. Don't forget that you were the one who asked for advice! I don't think there was any aim to offend, but only hit on things that perhaps you hadn't thought of.
I'm curious, what was his weight before the 8 pound loss? His obsession with food could be because, since you got him 4 months ago, he's had two major food adjustments. He went from free feeding to structure, then again to a smaller amount than what he was accustomed to. Maybe he just feels a lot of uncertainty about what may happen to his food if he doesn't grab all he can all at once. Another thing I'd wonder, has his thyroid been checked? Hypothyroidism could explain a heavier dog on so little food: http://www.2ndchance.info/doghypothyroid.htm |
| ps. he had NEVER pooped in the house until today. haha, though i dont have any thing as fun as "twinkie!" to say hes very good about that, and lets you know when he needs to go, and trying to go when hes out. he had been out so much today that the going in the house cant be anything other then being reactionary about the other dog im sure.
or being scolded by people that wernt me? he ripped apart the trash and my roomate cleaned it, which is when he went in the house. so he may have been angry she yelled at him. |
| I don't think anyone was suggesting that you are irresponsible or neglectful. But it does seem that Sam, for whatever reason, is particularly needy right now. He's been through a lot of changes--new home and family to get used to, change in your schedule, new room mate and new dog. It's a lot for a dog (or a human!) to handle in a relatively short time. It doesn't mean that you're irresponsible or neglectful or a bad doggie parent. But you asked for suggestions and I think they seemed reasonable based on what you've told us. And based on what those of us who have had dogs that ate stuff they shouldn't, gotten into garbage, tore things up (personally, I've lost a brand new pair of shoes, and a pair of eye glasses), etc.
The amount of food seems small to me, too, really. Right now I have 3 OES--a 7 yr old adult and 2 puppies (5 1/2 months old). They all are given 2 cups of good quality dry dog food, twice a day, with some treats as well. The puppies are obviously at a growing stage and eat their food quickly, but don't bother the older dog's food (he's never been a big eater). My first OES WAS a huge eater, when he could get away with it. He did have a weight problem when my son went away to college: no one else played soccer with him, although he still got his 4 walks a day and usual romps. I understand that you are going on vet's advice, and I respect that. But from Sam's perspective, the change in amount of food and going to scheduled feeding is another change. You just want him to be his healthiest and happiest because you care about him. He has no idea that eating too much is bad for him. He just knows he's hungry (or thinks he is) and food is probably a comfort for him, just as it is for people, sometimes. RE: getting into garbage and food. Dogs' sense of smell is so much stronger than ours: things packed away in tupperware might not give off a scent that we can smell, but he sure can. And it probably smells delicious to him. What I do is to keep ALL food in closed cupboards or the fridge. My garbage is under the sink behind closed doors. I did this years before I had dogs to make sure none of my children (who also sometimes get into things that aren't good for them) got into something I didn't want them to have. If it is possible for you to keep the garbage behind a closed door, in a way that is convenient and doesn't mean sleeping with the garbage in your room (which would be unpleasant, to say the least), try that. My older dogs never bothered trash much, but the puppies will if given a chance. So, I do my best not to give them a chance. Believe me, they take any chance they can to get stuff that's bad for them. At my house, school has just started up again, too. My husband teaches, and my daughter is taking university classes while I work all day. The puppies have had to adjust to being left alone more than usual--and guess what? They have misbehaved more. It isn't because we're bad parents to them, It's because change is hard. They get tons of walks--6 a day if it isn't raining; during really rainy days, it's only 4 good ones and a couple of short ones in between. They play with other dogs (and play well), and any person who will give them the time. What we've done is to restrict them to only part of the house while we're gone. I also have scheduled into my day specific play time with me, which involves balls, and scratches (me, not them) and tickles and romps. We make up games--they like to hide the balls and find them or play keep away from each other. The other thing is teaching them tricks: it's exercise for their brains. It's fun for you, for the dog, and it's fun to show off how smart your dog is (makes you look smart, too). I haven't had a dog that ate clothing before, but some do. I think if it were me, I'd do my best not to give Sam any chance to get my clothes--for my wardrobe's sake, and for his health's sake (not to mention the vet bills). So, I'd keep my clothes out of his reach, either behind closed doors or in drawers, at least if I weren't directly supervising him. If he likes the texture of soft things, you might try stuffed toys for dogs. He'll destroy them, sure, but it won't be your socks and underwear. They're cheap, and it's worth a try. I don't know if any of these suggestions will work for you. Hopefully, they will, or they'll inspire you to come up with some solutions of your own. Please let us know how you and Sam are doing. |
| When Mulligan came to us, he had been restricted from drinking water, and at every opportunity he would go after water as if he would never see any again. This sounds a lot like the behavior that you are seeing.
I'm sure this was done to him because he was peeing in the house, dribbling with excitement. With water, we we able to transition him back to "free watering" without regard for weight gain. We then worked on strategies to eliminate the house peeing, which was rather quickly fixed. He was also becoming ravenous as we cut back on his food to slim him down. We decided to stick with a lesser-quality food for a while as they are less nutrient dense; that is you have to feed much more to get the same number of useful calories. We used Beneful for a while before switching over to Wellness. Perhaps a return to free grazing might be a good idea for Sam? Or a switch to a poorer quality feed for a while?? I think we also supplemented with things like a cup of green beans, as they added some bulk to his diet. I've asked on the forums a couple of times if anyone could tell me how to transition a dog from scheduled feedings to free grazing without having them get sick in the process. For a lot of dogs that works really well! |
| Actually Ron, I intruded on one of Willowsprite's posts about
switching my guys back to free feeding. I tried it for a few days and Zeke had several accidents, and ate non-stop, so I went back to mealtime. I wish I could find a way to go back to free feeding... Shellie |
| A quick suggestion. My aunt, an old time dog trainer and general animal person, rescued a plott hound from an animal shelter, who was also food crazy. She put a rock the size of your fist in the middle of his food bowl. She said this slows their eating down, because they have to work their way around the rock and gives them the illusion there is more food in the bowl than there is. Zack will usually lick the rock a couple of times when he is done. It has helped his eating habits. Worth a try. Get a rock from your garden, park etc. and just wash it off well before using it. It also doesn't cost anything!! |
| What a GREAT idea!!! |
No one meant to offend you, and no one said you were being neglectful.... that didn't even cross my mind. 
OES vary so greatly in size, some are full grown under 50 lbs, and about 21 inches tall, and some are full grown at 110 lbs and 28 inches tall. They all have different bone structure too, I have one with a finer bone structure than my other two, so even though she weighs less than the other two, she is actually a little fat. Of course, since they vary so much, a blanket statement of 2 cups a day for all just wouldn't work. 2 cups a day may very well be enough for your boy, but it may not. He *sounds* as if he is hungry, in my opinion, so if 2 cups is really enough for him to maintain his weight, perhaps try giving him filler such as grated carrots, or green beans that will allow him to feel full and may stop him from behaving this way. Just a suggestion. If he is a bigger dog, like over 60 lbs, then 2 cups may have been ok to lose weight, but is not enough to maintain weight and provide not only the calories he needs, but also the other nutrients he needs. As far as getting into stuff, I have one who will do that too, so we simply have to make sure there is nothing for her to get into. Garbage is taken out before we leave the house, and when we are home it is put somewhere they can't get at easily. |
| I know someone who's dog eats fast, especially when other dogs are around so she throws chunks of carrot and other veggies to slow him down. Guess it is along the lines of the rock in the food. But with goodness in it if he does eat the veg.
I am no pro but I would say the change in feeding is the root of it all. To go from free feeding to structured meals (which I think is a good thing and kudos to you for doing it). Perhaps go slow, like when you change a food, gradually mixing in the new. Do the same with the free feeding. Start with smaller meals through out the day and then start taking away slowly. Cut down on a meal every week. Perhaps the weight loss isn't your biggest concern at the time. Getting the dog to not free feed is number one. Then progress to the diet next once he is comfortable with meals. Like I said I am no pro just something that popped into my mind 
Good Luck! |
| I took Bosley's mom's post as more of 4 potential circumstances that any of which might be happening, not 4 diffinitive things that were happening all at once. You sound like a very good owner.
Have you tried putting his old 'normal' amount of food in his bowl? Will he gobble that whole amount up? Where does this new dog stay during the day? Do they seem to get along? Are they fed at the same time/place? Barney was a little hefty for a while, but he also stopped eating as much this summer, so he more naturally lost some weight. He started eating about 2ish cups a day(one plus a little in the morning, one plus a little in the evening), with a little cottage cheese and glucosamine added at the dinnertime meal (I know, yum). But now he's finishing his food super fast, so I'm working my way back to closer to 2 cups each meal (which is what he was eating before. Maybe you could try giving him more food and see how he reacts. He won't gain weight again in a a few days, so it might be worth trying. It sounds like a lot of adjustment for the poor doogie... |
| this morning sam was taken out as soon as i was up which is the usual routeine, then fed.
this morning i started with a new amount of 1.5 cups thinking this may help. there was poop in the hallway and in the front room AGAIN (my roomate said he had cleaned that up in the same place the night before) while i was in the kitchen making breakfast. during this time that i didnt know that was there he managed to walk in it, walk all over his bed AND pee on his bed???? (a small spot.) around 11 he peed on the hallway floor (which hes NEVER done.) My roomate said today when he took him out sam ate poop (which has not been a problem before) and he had to get him away from it and back inside. Weve all been REALLY good about taking him out a ton of times and so there is absolutly NO reason for this! im totally baffled! even if he is upset about the other dog... hes HOLDING it in to go in the house?? i was at school from noon to 5, and i came home to the same exact scene i came home to last night. my roomate cleaning up trash scattered all over the kitchen. this time sam broke my 120$ 10 year warrenty garbage can, breaking into the same trash hes broken into 3 times?? things are just getting worse by the day. hes obviously getting locked up now because i cant trust him, but i fear that its cyclical. hes bahaving really badly, gets scolded, and therefore reacts? i dont expect miracle solutions, but i did try out feeding him more and todays been THE worst day. im totally exasperated. that feeling of being excited to come home to that wagging tail whos sooo happy to see you has just become dread. everytime ive come home in the past three days its been to some sam caused disaster.  |
| Wow that does sound like a bad day....
Perhaps crating him when no one is home would be the best way to go.... it will keep him and your home safe, and if he doesn't have a chance to get in trouble, he won't be scolded and will probably respond really well to some positive reinforcement training... |
I'm soooo sorry you're going through this  |
| How long has the new dog been in the house? Is this relatively recent? |
| First of all, has Sam been vet checked for a possible health problem? Just to be sure nothing else is going on. If peeing in the house is an issue, you might check to see if he has struvite crystals or a urinary tract infection.
The big rock idea is wonderful  Just make sure it's way too large for him to swallow in his zealous quest for his dinner.
When you let him out to potty, do you take him on a leash or do you open the door and let him out? One thing that might help is to teach him to go on command. We do this with every dog that enters the pack. This requires the human to take the dog outside every time on a leash until they've learned the command. If she doesn't do her business, she's confined to a safe area like a crate or puppy-proof room. We then try again in 20 minutes and repeat until she's done it. One key to making this work is to repeat softly "do your business", then praise when he does so eventually when you say "do your business" he will. And you make them do their business BEFORE they are allowed off leash to play in the secure yard. When he can't be supervised, you might consider putting him in a puppy-proof room or a crate... but don't over confine him or you may get a whole new set of issues. You might also tether him to a human so he has to follow them instead of getting into mischief. As a last resort, I'd ask your vet if there is a medication that might help ease his anxiety or compulsive behavior... I have a sheepie that had big time separation anxiety when she arrived last year. She drooled terribly and her beard was stained because it was always wet; she was destructive- taking inappropriate items and chewing them up; a notorious counter surfer and garbage hound; followed us every where we went and had to be right next to us. We couldn't have ANY door closed between us or she would poop/pee or become destructive. She had to be able to see us... she just couldn't help it. We had to take showers with the bathroom door open. The counters had to be cleared, the garbage secured in a cupboard and we had to be diligent in picking up after ourselves. Some of the things she destroyed or ate were...
An electric car starter yet to be installed. She chewed it to pieces. 4 purses (yeah, I was a slow learner) 2 pairs of boots An entire bunch of bananas (she quickly learned to peel them first) An entire cantaloupe... rind, seeds and all. If someone got up from the dinner table, she would proceed to eat off their plate. Shampoo bottles, lotion, etc. A pot of cooled water that we had cooked some chicken in. And just a note on how deadly counter surfing can be... we came home the other day and found that Panda had turned on the gas stove and the automatic igniter was clicking (thank you God that it lit  ). She could have blown up the house or caught on fire. We THOUGHT we had completely puppy-proofed the kitchen (she can't be crated because of past issues of possible over confinement.) We now remove all burner knobs until we need to use them and there are two Scat Mats in place when we leave on an errand. And this time she knew she did wrong even without us saying a word. She was very subdued which was a first for this sheepie-girl.
The good news is that she's down to 1/5 of the original dose of medication. We will be removing the med completely this month to see if she can handle it. Her beard is now white (no whiteners used), she knows more boundaries and limits than before so she has done well. We've learned that we have to be consistent and diligent. She was extremely exuberant when we would get the pack's food ready. She would jump, spin and bark then escort us as we passed out each dog's dish. She was totally obnoxious and she needed to learn to "settle". I resorted to putting a remote citronella collar on her on Sunday and told her to sit/stay. If she started to move, I gave her a warning beep (no spray was needed). After 5 days we no longer use the collar and simply tell her to sit/stay and repeat it a few times. She isn't stupid... she just needed to be redirected and shown what was going to be allowed. This is just what we did... right or wrong, I don't know. Maybe something here will help you with Sam. I'm sure Panda would love to meet Sam some day... they have so much in common! |
Quote: THE worst day. im totally exasperated. that feeling of being excited to come home to that wagging tail whos sooo happy to see you has just become dread.
One final thought and please know that I'm not saying this to hurt you, only to help... If he is no longer a joy because of his exasperating behavior (and believe me, I KNOW what it's like), you might consider rehoming him through an OES rescue. It is never an easy choice but I can feel your frustration in your posts. But before considering this, please sit down and have a long talk with your vet. Jaci |
Willowsprite wrote: perhaps try giving him filler such as grated carrots, or green beans that will allow him to feel full and may stop him from behaving this way. J
Green beans are WONDEFUL. Get the ones that are unsalted as he's on a weight-plan. We have used them with some fosters we've had and they are a great filler-meal for the middle of the day. I also like the rock idea in the middle of his food bowl, and I would begin crate-training him. If you start slow on the weekends and build it up while you're in class on the week-days it could solve some of your constant trash-can issues! He must be very dedicated to get into that!!
Training - it sounds like he knows his stuff. Sooo - maybe he's in need of an advanced class. Sheepies like to work, and training on a higher level would give him a 'job' and put more focus on that than other things around the house. Maybe there are some sheep-herding classes around your area? Or agility? Or even Canine Good Citizen training. He's obviously smart enough to figure things out around the house (like your garbage can ) so maybe this would b e beneficial.
One last question: your roommates are around when he has some of his issues. They obviously care for him a great deal. Are they consistent in training him the same way you do? Probably, but if not it could b e something . . . Good luck and let us know how it is going. |
| Wow, I thought I had mentioned green beans in my post, but looking back I hadn't.
Yes! They go with the less dense food, to give a dog on a weightloss program a fuller feeling. |
| Some times I think they misinturrupt our reactions to their "messes". They think we're all excited about what a good job they did, rather than, "you little brat!"
If you weren't experiencing all these problems before the little dog moved in, maybe you could restrict that dog's freedom for awhile to help you train - retrain your dog. It does make a difference. Free feeding shouldn't be a problem unless it would cause a fight between the two dogs. I would measure what I put in the bowl, but put a little more than the required amount in to start out with. Watch for a few days to see how much is actually left at the end of the day. Of course, you'll have to make sure the other dog isn't eatting it, in order to get an accurate idea of how much he's eatting. Measure what's left - WITHOUT the dog knowing your doing it or he'll return to eat just because you gave him the idea. If he's not eatting more than he should, you have no problem. If he is, just cut it back a little and eventually he'll see that thats how much he has to last him all day. I think part of the problem is: 1. He had to leave a secure home 2. You cut his food portions, and stopped free feeding. He lost the security of knowing at least his food would always be there. 3. In comes another dog, "am I gonna get to stay?" Another insecure feeling comes into play. I just think he needs to be put first for awhile, so he can regain some security in life. Good luck. jmop |
| Sam has been there for 4 mths...he's probably adjusted well by now. He adjusted to the food decrease because it was gradual.
These new "issues" I think are from the recent changes in routine, and the new dog. Or as mentioned could be medical because they came so suddenly. Remy who usually doesn't care about food and can sit there all day, will scarf it down in sec's if she thinks the other dog will take some. With all the foster dogs, and personally owned dogs we learned she is food aggressive with other dogs. I have come home and found poop too, not from Remy but other dogs...it is so gross and it is a real pain esp when there should not be a reason for it. I hope you get your money back on the "indestructable" garbage can...it is kinda funny, but probably not right now to you. 
Maybe get a simple small can for under sink with a baby latch on it for awhile. Maybe find him a toy where he has to flip it alot to get kibble out of a tiny hole, we have one that is a really really hard plastic...mine prefer the KONG, but they don't destroy them. The hard plastic has three knobs on it, and they have to really work it more than the Kong, to get stuff out. I got it from PetsMart. Take care and keep us updated we want to help you and Sam, we really do. He sounds like quite the character. |
| just washed him again tonite. he smelled like pee and poop which has never happened before either. washed his bed. put him in the back room.
im going to try some bricks in the bottom of the trash can tomorrow,and see how it goes, but for the record i wouldnt give sam away at all. hes a great guy, hes just having some problems. |
| That's good you're commited to making it work... we would never give up Panda either. So you take steps to keep them safe and address the issues. He will end up getting into something that will harm him... and if he's eating garbage it could be one reason for pooping in the house. Intestinal obstructions can be deadly or result in expensive surgery.
Isn't there a cupboard that you can simply hide a smaller wastebasket in and empty it each day before leaving? The "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" approach. You can also put a childproof latch on the door. It would at least take care of this one issue. Or strap the heavy can you have to the wall so he can't tip it over but you're still leaving it in plain sight so you have to be sure he can't get into it for even one scrap of paper. Or as Grannie Annie with NEOESR recommends, purchase Scat Mats and place them in front of the garbage so he can't even get close to the garbage can. These work amazingly well after just a 1 or 2 attempts but you may have to continue their use for a long time. As Grannie Annie says, each time they get something they shouldn't have (like the repeated garbage incidents) you've just rewarded and reinforced their bad behavior. Again, the other thing is to take him outside on a leash everytime and start training him to relieve himself on command. Years ago, our vet told us that some day you're going to be in a hurry and won't have time to let the dog goof around in the yard so teach him this command from the start. It works if you are consistant and you don't allow them to get away with not doing it. Good luck! |
| What's a scat mat? |
| It's a plastic mat that has a 9-volt battery that powers it. Mine have 3 settings- low, medium, high. If the dog steps on it, they get a shock. My husband and I have forgetton they are on at times and have touched them ourselves. You get a shock and don't want to touch it again.
When compared to the life of a dog or the expense for surgery or medical treatment, it's an effective and humane way to curb this unwanted and harmful behavior. It isn't the human giving the correction and it's given at precisely the right moment... when the bad/dangerous behavior begins. If you have a dog that wasn't trained properly from the beginning and is so completely out of control dog that he/she knows no bounds, it's a good alternative. One to be used only when positive reinforcement has failed to keep them safe. Mfr. Website: Note that I think they are less expensive at PetSmart. http://www.contech-inc.com/products/scatmat/ Sizes: http://www.contech-inc.com/products/scatmat/sizes/ How & Why It Works: http://www.contech-inc.com/products/scatmat/how/ Specifications: http://www.contech-inc.com/products/sca ... fications/ Video Demonstrations: http://www.contech-inc.com/products/scatmat/videos/ Testimonials: http://www.contech-inc.com/products/sca ... timonials/ Product Support: http://www.contech-inc.com/customerserv ... t/scatmat/ |
| Yuck (literally)! What a bad day
I remember that the first couple of months after I got Barney I started to dread going home too. I didn't know what I would find (poop, pee) when I got there. He was much younger than your Sam, but it was still hard. It was also hard because he had come from someone else's home where they told me a lot of stuff about him that I really think they were just saying because they thought I wanted to hear it (yeah, SURE he was housetrained...what, trained to GO in the house!). I think the food thing will take a little while. So if you just started giving him more food it won't make it all better in just one day (if the food amount thing turns out to be one of the problems). Barney had some serious anxiety issues (and still does, to an extent), but as he's gotten older and maybe just happier with us, he's gotten over some of them (he used to drink until he puked). Good luck, it sounds like you are doing a lot of good things with him...sometimes they just don't know what we want them to do! Oh, and we JUST started keeping the gas knobs on the stove again. Barney had knocked into them a few times when he was younger and once started the clicker, so they were taken off and put in a drawer. Very scary stuff! |
| (he used to drink until he puked).
I still do! haha couldn't help myself. I couldn't resist. |
| sam does the drinking til he pukes but only when its hot out. makes sense. |
barney1 wrote: .....It was also hard because he had come from someone else's home where they told me a lot of stuff about him that I really think they were just saying because they thought I wanted to hear it (yeah, SURE he was housetrained...what, trained to GO in the house!)....
As a previous breeder, when my puppies were old enough to run and follow mom, I'd open the door and let them chase after her when she went outside. I used her to help me housebreak them. BUT, when they were leaving my house to go to their new homes, I ALWAYS reminded the new owners that they were housebroke AT MY HOUSE. When you get them to your house you may have some problems in the beginning because of new surroundings and a new schedule. They won't know where to go until you show them at your house, but it should make it easier because they already have the basics down. Plus the new owner had a copy of the schedule they were use to, from going to bed, eatting, snacks......... I'd suggest the leash also. But, I'd also take the poopy from the accident and place it out in the yard where you want him to go. Take him to that same spot and eventually he'll keep returning to it. Not to say he won't go other places, but my dogs had a habit of going to "their" favorite spots. Another thing too, if there's too much poopy in that spot they will go to another place. So it helps to make sure their area is clean, even if they could care less about how clean they keep "our" area.  |
| Actually my neighbors dog does the same thing. She is a Great Dane and she will eat socks, underwear, blankets. In fact she had to have emergency surgery because of this. Lucy is not on Puppy Prozak because of it.
I did find a web article that may help http://www.sspca.org/EatingHabits.html My Phobe used to poop when I leave for out of town work. She is extremely attached to me and for one day she refused to poop outside. My children always put her out, took her for walks but she just refused. We gave her one of my old sweatshirts to sleep on when I have to leave. My son takes it with him outside (looks silly) but works. As far as food goes, Phoebe is 20 months old. She stands 29 3/4" tall and weighs 82 pounds. She is not over weight according to the vet. But she runs with my boys almost 1 hour each day. She eats about 6 cups of Nature Choice food a day, plus some treats. She loves fresh carrots. When she is especially bored when I am working I give her a grape. She rolls it around for about 15 minutes then eats it. I found this gives her play time while I get my things done and a little bit of exercise. She eats twice a day. I cannot leave food down for her because I have other dogs and they will eat it which sometimes causes a fight. Hopefully all the helpful hints you have received will help you out |
Quote: When she is especially bored when I am working I give her a grape.
http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=771 |
| Oh My Gosh I never knew that Thankyou so much |
| i gave sam a grape a while back and when it was taking him a while i got nervous itd get lodged in his throat whole, so i never did it again, but thanks for that! i never knew.... |
| I thought that grapes and raisins are poisonous for dogs! |
| i just wondered if he had been wormed....pur pup didnt put weight on till he took the tablets |
| Here's a list that the Humane Society of the United States indicates are harmful to our pets... it doesn't specifically say dogs but probably easier to avoid them all just in case or ask your vet.
Humane society link on dangerous foods for pets |
| I never knew grapes would hurt her. She never eats them whole she usually smashes them into the floor from playing with them then sort of licks the mess. She is odd she loves bananas, watermelon. I have to find something new. Even though she loves a small ball I won't let her have it, like you I was worried she would choke. Something she can roll with her nose, since that is what she does with the grape, then pounces lilke a cat would. Guess she likes the squish
She has a Kong but does not like it even with the most wonderful treat like beggin bits. |
| I didn't read all the posts above, but I think I found the answer to my problem with my dog. We have only had him a couple of months. He is 3 and recently started eating and chewing up stuff. I started giving him some really good and healthy dog food that we had bought at the vet when we got him. He wouldnt eat it and we went and got him some pedigree with flavor!!!! and he did just fine. Well I decided to see if he would eat the Yucky stuff when the good stuff was gone and he did eat it, but he ate it like it was going out of style! He must be hungry and not getting full from the other stuff! and he is eating more of the stuff he didnt like before to try and get satisfied. I'm not sure how healthy the pedigree is for him, but it has to be healthier than pens, little plastic things and oh let us not forget the tassells on my pillows! He has also been tring to go to potty alot more, I think his stomach is upset because of all this JUNK in it and he is not sure if he needs to go or not sometimes.OES has sensitive stomachs-so I was told! We also watched what seemed like a marathon of the dog whisperer ? (spell check) and in every episode we watched behavior was fixed by exercise and stimulation! We as people are not satisfied with just staying in our house or back yard and neither are our dogs. They need to get out and see the world and meet people. Of course my dog is spoiled and he loves to go in any vehicle for a ride! and wont take no for an answer when I try to walk him! He absolutely refuses most of the time. So I have to put him in the car and drive him to the park 2 blocks away and then he will get out and play![/u] |
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