How can you tell if they are playing or fighting?!?!?!
She is already biting on our cocker spaniel Royce's ears and "pawing" him. When he's walking she comes running from behind and bites his back. I could tell she wants to play since she lays on her back while grabbing on to his ears, but this starts a big growling fest where they run towards each other full force, sit up and bite each other's necks and wave their paws in the air while growling the whole time. At first I thought they are just playing but when I looked at Royce's eyes it dawned on me that maybe they are not playing?!?! He's never plays rough with other dogs before. He likes gentle calm surroundings and just minds his own. Maybe Pita is aggrevating him and he just wants to be left alone? Then should I remove her when she lunges at him? Perhaps the biting/growling is Royce's way of telling her to stop but she doesn't get it and and overwhelms him with her massive body? I'm just worried that rough playing might hurt either of them or their temperaments..... |
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| Has Royce ever had an opportunity to play with a puppy before? That might explain some of the changes in his style of play, too. It sounds like they're playing-- usually there's an obvious difference. Bear and Clyde have some of the most hard hitting, loud play sessions ever. If you didn't know better, you'd swear one of them was going to end up dead. I'd let them work everything out on their own unless it starts to look like things are escalating and have a capacity for violence. |
| It sounds like they are playing. We now let it go until the puppy lets out a yelp or Annie's demeanor changes. After a while, you should be able to read their cues. |
| Hard to tell without really seeing them together if it's just play. If you think Royce is getting peeved, you're probably right because you know your dog best. I would probably start teaching a "play nice!" or "leave it!" command. It takes time, supervision and consistancy.
It might be a good idea to give Royce some quite time away from Pita each day... pups can be so totally obnoxious and the older dogs need a break. You might also want to reinforce that Royce has not lost his top dog place... we give the existing dogs attention first and the pup comes last. The existing dogs get fed first, the pup last. It's tough to do when a pup is so darn cute. By doing this you might help prevent some jealousy. Do not leave them together unsupervised until you are certain Royce will not harm Pita. Obedience classes soon might also be a good idea... these outings can give her some playmates her own age on which to expend some of that glorious puppy energy. Jaci |
| First...........Congratulations! Pita is adorable.
Second.....they are probably just playing. I often wondered the same with mine. Sometimes they get pretty rough.....I have learned it is all play. I agree with Jaci that some alone time is also necessary....I think she gave me the same advice...I probably asked the same question! Everyone needs a break from those sharp puppy teeth! Good luck Laurie |
| Thank you everyone for the suggestions.
Surprisingly, I noticed how Royce has matured in the past four days. He has gained more confidence and it show when he's outside playing with other dogs or just walking. He even showed Pita how to walk down the stairs. He went up and down for her to see and she followed his exact path! Today we yelled "No! Gentle" and separated Royce from Pita when she yelped. I could tell he didn't want to be separated. Now both Pita and Royce pay attention to our reactions when they play. I'm really surprised how they learn so fast. I'm sure they'll do it again tomorrow but at least I know they can be controlled!! |
| i think you can also pay attention to the body position, and the position of the tail (though may be hard on a dog with no tail). Tails up = happy...tails down = not happy.
sounds like fun though...and pita is very cute! |
| Sounds like things are rolling right along! Congratulations again, Pita is a darling! |
| Actually, I have the same question about my littermates, Sophie and Sherman who are 5 months old. Sherman is pretty obviously omega in the pack: He calmly waits behind 7 year old Archie and his sister Sophie when treats are being handed out; he's fairly compliant and tries very hard to please. Sophie, on the other hand, is fairly dominant. I've never had a female dog before, so I don't know if this is because she's the only female or if it is simply her personality--and a trait that certainly wasn't apparent when we chose her.
She's very smart and energetic and playful and affectionate--but she's more intense than my other sheepies. She's an attention hog--she wants to be in the center of any attention that's being handed out--even brushing. Archie's trying to slink away, Sherman just sighs and accepts it, and Sophie flings herself into my lap like "What about me?" And her coat is so un-OES puppylike that she requires far less brushing. However, she gets her share of brushing, affection, exercise, treats, discipline (probably more than her share of the last: she's smart and stubborn). Sophie will try to drive Sherman away from his food. She gets testy if you make her move off a bed or sofa (which means I'm not letting her on either. Convincing my husband is more difficult). She loves to romp with Sherman and with Archie and other doggie friends in the neighborhood and gets along well with them--but she and Sherman battle it out. Often, it's easy to see that it's all in fun: just typical puppy wrestling. Sometimes, it gets down to bared teeth and snarls. No yelps or bites, but sometimes I decide it's not play and that it's enough. Also, while I am used to male dogs doing their 'dominance dance' as my sons liked to call it, Sophie does the same thing: she tries to mount Sherman. So, do I let them battle it out or do I try to establish a dominance order? How much do I put up with? She's pretty much accepted that I am the boss of her, although she still wants to test the theory out from time to time. Is this typical girl dog behavior or is it just her? Do I just work with it or should something more serious be done? Puppies have had basic obedience classes. They are walked 5-6 times a day, two of the walks about 2 miles long; one closer to a mile; others a few block--probably about 5 miles a day on leash walks. |
tgir wrote: So, I've posted in the How can you tell if they're playing or fighting' thread about girls vs boys. I have my first female dog, ever and she's so much more intense than the boys (past and present). Is it gender or is it being the only female or is it Sophie as an individual? She's very dominant, something that was not at all apparent when we got her.
Lucy's a lot more intense than the boys. I think it's about 50% gender, 50% individual with her. One thing I've always considered in our house is age-- the boys are and 1 and almost 2 and she's well, old. She was a rescue and is somewhere between 12 and 13. But, as I think back, she's never been as cuddly and happy-go-lucky as my boys (OES and Komondor) but that could also be contributed to her breed mix (Briard/something). Even now though, she runs the house. The boys mess with her but even more, they respect and slightly fear her. It's always entertaining though to see little 55 pound Lucy run 125+ pound Bear into a corner. I think they all have their quirks no matter what they are! |
| tgir
I also heard from my trainer that littermates always battle it out and it's the hardest to establish dominance between them. I guess it comes from being together since the beginning and they were always treated as equals. |
| Sophie is much smaller than Sherman--she was the smallest of the puppies, which was one of the deciding factors between her and one of her sisters. Our dogs have always larger individuals and we thought a smaller OES might be a nice change.
It makes sense that littermates would battle it out in a way. After all, I do have sisters--and 4 kids, so I know how that goes. But when I was a kid, we had beagles. The two that we had from when I was about 8 for about 11 or 12 years were brothers and littermates. One was the runt, the other one of the largest of the litter. I don't recall any fighting or tussling, although they were definitely outdoor dogs, and not indoor dogs like my OES, so whatever interactions they had were less intense. I was prepared for twice as much work with 2 puppies compared with getting one--but not 10 times as much work, which it is. Whether it is because I have littermates or because these are simply different individuals, these puppies definitely take much, much more energy and supervision than the other two I raised. Any ideas about how long it will take them to sort this all out? Mostly, it's just an annoyance when they occasionally get loud/rowdy when we think it's time to be more quiet. And it's never been directed towards any other dog--not ARchie, not the other puppies or adult dogs with whom they play. Just each other. |
| I'd let them battle it out on their own and not get involved unless the violence starts to escalate and there's a chance someone will get hurt. Does Sherman seem to care when Sophie bosses him around? When she mounts him, does he get really upset or just let it go? It may very well be the order is already established but Sherman is "testing" it. In our house, it goes by age: Lucy, Clyde then Bear. Bear has gotten very large and overbearing lately and I've noticed Clyde doing a lot of mounting to make sure Bear remembers his place, especially when Bear barks or challenges Lucy. Clyde, the enforcer, comes blasting in and pushes him away from Lucy and mounts Bear. Sometimes Bear doesn't seem happy about it, but he accepts it. |
| Sherman doesn't really seem to mind. He tries to mount Sophie, too. Actually, what was really funny/ironic is that some time ago, when playing with an American Pit Bull puppy who is a month older (and much larger and more muscular), Sherman, classic underdog, would try to mount Dre, the super sweet/macho. Dre looked unimpressed, and we all laughed.
I'm just letting them battle it out unless it gets too annoying since no one is really getting hurt, or even nipped. Except for the mounting, it's like kids squabbling and heaven knows I've dealt with that for a long time. Archie pretty much stays out of it, although sometimes he decides they're playing too rough and breaks it up, but that's usually if he thinks they are being too wild around small children or other people (actually, they aren't--all 3 dogs are extremely good at gearing their activity level to the size/age of the child. Archie's just cautious and a bit of a scold sometimes.) |
| I had litter mates - females, along with several others, both male and female at the same time. All OES, different ages.
One day while cleaning the shed the two girls were playing. All was fine, all the others were doing their own thing. All of a suffen that play turned into a "to death" fight. Neither willing, or going to stop. I was alone, but had to get involved. Mistake. Not from stopping the fight, but afterwards one of the girls and their mother seemed to think I took her side. The three could never be together. A fight would break out between the girls and their mom would run to break it up, "always" siding with the same one, turning it into a 2 on 1. In her mind she thought she was helping me. So separation was the only resolution. 
There was no "ok, I'll train them" for me. They looked for reasons to start fighting after that. So, it was "I'm not taking any more chances". Had they not stolen my heart I would've gotten rid of the one they other two wanted to fight. But, I loved her too much. She was perfectly fine with all my other dogs, and were all fine, loving creatures with people. I agree with teaching the "cool it" "that's enough" command, but don't advise using either of the dogs names. And, I wouldn't let it get too frisky before yelling at them to stop it. jmop |
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