Looking at OES - have a million questions
This site looks like an awesome source of information for everything OES! My girlfriend and I live in Ontario, Canada (2 hrs from Toronto) and we have been looking at OES's now for about 2 years. We now own our first home, and we are starting to look more seriously for a puppy. While we have researched the breed quite a bit on the internet, we still have a ton of questions. I may as well ask them! 1) When buying an OES, what should we look for in a breeder? I've noticed some puppies cost $500 (Canadian), and others are almost $2000. We're only looking for a good family dog, so I honestly don't need one with papers that's going to be "best in show". Having said that though, I don't want it's teeth falling out when it's 3. So considering all that, what should I expect to pay for a puppy and what should I be looking for? 2) I've read somewhere that OES's shed very little, especially when they are properly groomed and this is a HUGE plus for us as I don't want hair over everything we own. One breeder on the internet even said his breed doesn't shed. How is this possible and does it raise any flags for you as it has for me? 3) Where would be a good place to start looking for a reputable breeder? We live in Kingston, Ontario, Canada & we are located about 2 hrs from both Toronto and Ottawa. Does anyone have any references? 4) I've read that OES's are very good dogs to own in that they adapt very well to their owners. For example, if I want to spend a quiet night at home they won't be constantly jumping up and down wanting to play, yet if I want to take them for a long walk and play they are full of energy. Is that reasonable? I'm sure I'll have many more questions, but this is a good start. Thanks everyone. |
|
|
| Okay... I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can and I'm sure other users will jump in with their advice too.
1) Personally, I don't think a reputable breeder sells a puppy for $500. Reputable breeders invest quite a lot of time and money in finding a good match to breed to produce puppies that are (hopefully) even better than either of their parents. Our puppy cost us $1750 CAD (after tax) and I can 100% guarantee she lost money on the transaction. She still has a day job and doesn't breed to make money. She breeds because she loves the breed and wants to advance the breed gene-pool so-to-speak. She doesn't breed for looks (i.e. white caps, blue eyes, etc.) and doesn't breed for size. Look for a breeder that breeds for health and temperament. Make sure you can meet both parents and that both parents have tested clear for hips and eyes. Look for puppies that are raised in the home, not in a kennel. 2) Our puppy is 9 weeks now, and I couldn't pull a hair out if I tried. I can pet him for hours and not a single hair would come out in my hand. My understanding is that when the adult coat comes in it will be basically non-shedding, IF PROPERLY GROOMED. Proper grooming typically includes stripping out the undercoat with a comb/rake and also grooming will rid your dog of dead hairs. Honestly at this point, I SHED much, much more than my puppy does. 3) Reputable breeder... I have met 2 in your area of Ontario. Since we are not allowed to put breeder names in posts, I will PM you with both their information. Check out at least 2 breeders in-person. See their facilities, their breeding stock as well as their retired breeding stock who should be house pets. Make sure that you are comfortable with your breeder. He or she will be your best resource for questions and make sure they will be available even years in the future to answer any questions you have. We'll be bringing Barkley back to our breeder so she can give us a hands-on tutorial on how to line-brush and fully groom him once his adult coat starts coming in. This sort of long-term care is priceless. 4) I believe they are very adaptable. I also believe that an OES will need exercise EVERY DAY, whether you feel like it or not. Since you have researched the breed, I don't need to tell you that grooming is very demanding for this breed, so be sure you're prepared for it. Matts are extremely unhealthy for OESDs. I've heard a horror story about a OESD who was rescued who was so badly matted that the pee couldn't escape the hair and was pooling against the dog's skin. They shaved the dog down but it later died from the infection. I'll write you a PM now with my 2 recommendations. Good luck. |
| Regarding shedding : They really don't shed much. They have a coat transition when the black and white puppy coat is replaced by the grey and white coat. That is the worst time. They seem to grow mats almost overnight. (The loosening puppy hairs get trapped in the new hairs and form mats.) Thorough, frequent brushing is an absolute must.
We started grooming and handling our Ollie (our 1st OES) everywhere on his body when we got him as a pup. When he was little we started on the washer (it's in a bright location with an easy to clean floor), then graduated to a grooming table. He loved the attention so much that we had to hide the table between uses! Like all puppies, they need lots of exercise. Not enough exercise is one of the main causes of undesired behavior in dogs. OES's were made to be a dog who can work tirelessly all day, so exercise and an activity to keep their brain busy is very important. Some are more sedate, but that is not the norm. This is why it's very important to talk with breeders, meet their dogs and ask lots of questions. We are currently OES -less, but are looking at a litter where the parents and relatives of the pups are shown, but are also titled in obedience, agility and herding. We raise sheep, and do herding, obedience, and therapy dog work with our dogs. So an active, busy dog with strong self confidence is what we are looking for. A dog that lives in town as a family pet would not be an appropriate home for these pups. There is one puppy in the litter who is more reserved and not as high energy - he IS going to a home to just hang out and be a pet. A responsible breeder is going to know their pups, and only place them in a home that will be a match for their dogs. Good luck in your search - they are really fun dogs with a natural clown disposition that lasts their whole life. |
| About the shedding and hair over everything...
OES do not shed*, however they do have a TON of hair, and just like you and (especially) me, so hair breaks off or falls out occasionally. The longer the coat, the more there is to show up. There WILL be hair from your dog around the house. For breeders that have at a minimum agreed to a Code of Conduct, in the US you can check with OESCAs Breeder Referral chairperson, Tarja Koistila. She's member here Also, they maintain an online breeder referral list (but I'm not sure it's complete) at http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... ectory.htm I would assume that the OESCC maintains a similar list, though they don't seem to list one on their website. Have you considered rescuing an OES? OESOCC lists one dog in need of a home right now, http://www.oesocc.org/index.php?page=6.1 but I'm sure there are others around Canada! ...and here's a large, pretty well up-to-date listing of rescues right here: http://www.oes.org/html/oes_rescue.htm Good luck! *(Except once: When they blow out their puppy coat around 9 or 10 months if I recall correctly.) |
| I have found that most US-based listings have little or no Canadian breeder information. Here is a list I've found and have met 3 of the breeders on this list. I've already PM'd this list to The_Grudge but I'm sure it will be helpful for other Canadians looking for an OES breeder.
http://www.dogsincanada.com/breeds/old_ ... epdog.html |
| I think that oesocc dog has been placed, it's an old listing. They may have another, but an oes for rescue rarely pops up in Canada.
If you do want to rescue though I would contact Grannie Annie with NEOESR as she would at least be able to point you in the right direction. There are always oes for rescue in the states, so if transport can be arranged they may even be able to help you out. OESOCC doesn't exactly have a breeder referral service that I am aware of, but if you contact any of those listed as officers of the club on the oesocc website, they'd be able to put you in touch with more breeders in your area as well. The Dogs In Canada magazine has the most thorough listings. |
| There is an adult OES in need of a home in the Oshawa area. If interested send me a PM and I will get you more info.
But it sounds to me like you are looking for a puppy, which would be great for your first OES. If you are in the Toronto area you can come meet a couple of adults that I know quite well in the Milton area  |
| Even the American OES club could point you in the right direction of a good Canadian breeder. You could also have one shipped to you but the research is so much harder because there is no way to verify what they would tell you over the phone.
Even if you don't want a "show dog" please make sure that the breeder is doing the proper health checks and breeding research. Out of a litter, there may be 2 show dogs and say, 8 "regular" dogs. Good pet homes are gold to most show breeders. |
| I think the old adage, "You get what you pay for" is very true when it comes to puppies. When you buy from a quality breeder you are not just paying for a "show dog" you are paying for a healthy well breed dog that will come with a better chance of having a good temperment and haealth. Notice I didn't say guarantee because with exception of some genetic problems nothing is 100% but the better the breeder the better your odds of a great dog.
Which is not to say that you might not wind up with a healthy happy puppy from a hobby or back yard breeder or even by getting a rescue dog. Tasker, my sheepie, has one of the best temperments of any sheepies I have ever known. He has multiple health problems but none are "serious". He has alot of allergies and has chronic ear infections. I aquired him before becoming sheepie educated from a very nice back yard breeder at a relatively low cost. Someone forgot to tell Tasker taht sheepies don't shed................ One of the reasons I keep him in a short coat is that I get tired of dealing with all the hair all over everything. Regular grroming cuts down significantly on the amount of hair loss but I have noticed that as he gets older the hair loss is greater, I would not consider them a shed free dog. Although, I have been to homes of people with Collies, labs and etrievers and do thinks those breeds shed FAR MORE. One thing that seems to be clear, if you read through the different posts on this forum, is that there really is no way to "generalize" the sheepie personality. They are all wonderful, loving, goofy, great to have around creatures. But some are high energy, some are low. Some easily excitable some mellow and laid back. Like people they each develope their own personalities and I think alot has to do with the old nuture vs nature debate. In other words, how do you raise and train them. I don't think they need and excessive amount of exercise, but they do need exercise. They need love and attention and they do need to be creatively challenged. Good Luck with your journey into the world of sheepiedom. |
Tasker's Mom wrote: Tasker, my sheepie, has one of the best temperments of any sheepies I have ever known. He has multiple health problems but none are "serious". He has alot of allergies and has chronic ear infections. I aquired him before becoming sheepie educated from a very nice back yard breeder at a relatively low cost.
Someone forgot to tell Tasker taht sheepies don't shed................ One of the reasons I keep him in a short coat is that I get tired of dealing with all the hair all over everything. Regular grroming cuts down significantly on the amount of hair loss but I have noticed that as he gets older the hair loss is greater, I would not consider them a shed free dog. Although, I have been to homes of people with Collies, labs and etrievers and do thinks those breeds shed FAR MORE. Really though, Tasker's shedding is likely due to his health issues, as most oes really do not "shed" exactly. Their coat may break and some may be pulled out, but if regular grooming is done to remove what little dead or broken hairs there are in most cases you can't pet a sheepdog and get fur off like you can with other breeds. |
| In my experience, there is some variability in the free shedding of an OES. Mostly, if you groom them (ie, brush them daily), they shed WHERE YOU BRUSH THEM. I'd get a huge pile of shed/broken hair from Merlin, less as he moved into his golden years. Archie has always been more cat like in that he loves to rub against people and furniture, and will leave behind some hair. Not as many as most other breeds, but this was not an issue with Merlin. Until the last year or so (about age 5 or 6), Archie's coat was much softer than Merlin's was. Now, it's coarser, and seems more mature, as does Archie.
As for the puppies, they are litter mates, but their coats are very different. Sherman's is typical of what I've seen with my other sheepies: at almost 5 months, he's mostly soft fluff, with some coarser gray coming on, along his back and on his legs, mostly. Sophie, on the other hand, is still quite fluffy on her head, but her whole coat is coarser, and closer to her body. Both were the typical black and white balls of fluff when we first got them. All of my dogs have been very healthy, with no skin problems. |
Could very well be WIllowsprite! It's also gotten alot worse as he gets older which could be health related as well. My exerience is limited to one sheepie too.  |
| Welcome to the forum...this site is indeed an amazing source of information! Walter is my first OES (first dog, really) and i can't say enough nice things about the members here who are a constant support and source of advice!
I'll agree with what's been said about hair: Walter's hair comes out when I brush him, when he is scratching himself, or when he's rolling around furiously on the floor. I haven't really experienced "shedding" but he's still got his puppy coat, and I'm assuming i'll begin to see some changes shortly (he's 9 months). I could not be happier with Walter's temprament. As many have said, you can never really generalize or pigeon-hole these guys (like any dog). That being said, however, Walter is a clown. He is a big, slobbery moose, but all he wants to do is play, love, and please the people in his life. He totally goes with the flow - I've taken him to friends' houses for he weekend and he's like "ok, cool...new place...i'll chill here.  "
As for a quiet night at home, it's a great possibility. I wouldn't say they'll be jumping up and down wanting to play, but they might sit right in front of you laying on the couch, completely blocking your view of the TV with a huge furry head...like Walter does 
I've also found that he has responded very well to things outside of structured training. I've done basic obedience, and am always working on the basics and more advanced things, but I feel that he just knows what do do on a day to day basis - just by taking the time to live with him and go with the flow. They're very smart like that. Sorry to rant - I'm just so happy that I decided on this breed. Walter, and the stories from other members confirm my choice daily, and I wouldn't want any other breed! Good luck with your new addition, and of course, we look forward to hearing all about it! |
| Remy to does not "shed", however in grooming we have a pile of hair by the time we are done. Start day one, with a puppy massage, get them use to touch, and hold the feet alot for trimming and nail trims. Your groomer will appreciate it alot.
She has the absoulte best temperament ever, the only dog to win my husband over...he hates having a dog, but after 3 years she has finally won him over. They are big dogs, that can do alot of damage....Remy nails were left to grow and when we got her the quick was long. If you keep on top of the nail trimming, the nails wil stay short. Remy can do alot of damage if she jumps up and accidently scratches your arm. Also the clicking on the floor...we have laminate now. Boredom in all dogs will have a destructive nature...digging holes, chewing, barking, whinning. They need to be trained, and they need to be socialized with both people and dogs from an early age. Buy from a breeder that has tested both parent dogs for hip dysplasia (x-rays), blood work for thyroid, eyes from a vet that is an opthamologist (eye dr for dogs)...have info for the previous generations of dogs as well...same tests. Learn about pack order...some don't put to much stock into this, but in one litter you will have the dominant puppy, the submissive puppy and one that is in the middle...your breeder will be able to give more info because he/she has been with the puppies for 8 weeks. One puppy will win every fight, one will turn on there backs to give up...many puppies play and reverse the role's too. Regardless which pup you chose, they all need training... can you be firm or are you a softey...you will need to chose the dog based on what you can handle. Be honest with the breeder. OES take a long time to mature, they are puppy like forever. Remy will be calm when we are calm, and excited when we go for walks ... she is a herding dog too and this can offend other dog owners at the park. Remy will try and round up other dogs, bark in their face to make them move...some dogs don't mind and play along, others will get mad and snap back at her. If another dog show's aggression to her...she will stand her ground. Otherwise she keeps moving, and finds another dog to play. Last thought, a good breeder will hold onto those for 8-10 weeks, and bad breeder wants to get rid of them at 6 weeks. A bad breeder won't give you info, a good breeder will have a great deal of info and encourage contact to continue. A bad breeder will take your money and end it there, a good breeder will have a contract stating they will take the dog back, spay/neuter contract, health info, gaurantees of hip dysplasia. A bad breeder might have a smelly environment, unkempt dogs...a good breeder loves their dogs, this should be evident when you see the parents and keeps a clean environment...you will have a gut feeling and should trust it. Good luck. |
And my two cents.....Max and Miller are 3 and two, and I wouldn't know what a quiet night at home is. After play time they may lay down for 1/2 hour or so, but then those two just go at it again, right in front of the TV 
Welcome! |
| My mom's OES doesn't really shed. Her hair is somewhat like human hair - we lose approx. 100 hairs a day - so do they. But you run your hand over them and nothing - you run your hand over a lab or german shepard or cat and your hands or clothing will be saturated. Grooming or keeping them in a puppy cut will cut down on hair around the house - also matting will be less. They do matt very easily. Secondly, my mom's OES is about 10 years old - from about 3 years old on she did not chew things and was pretty mellow - many quiet evenings to be had. She loved a good romp, but after 3 or so they really do calm down. She walked her a few days a week and of course she had a yard and another dog to play with, but this breed IMO is not hyper, overactive or a jumper. She was not a barker either. She did like to occasionally steal a bag of bread from the counter top but she would bring it to another room and guard it rather than eat it - strange dog. They are big - so figure out a secure top on the garbage too or just put it on the table when you are gone - dumpster diving is big with them (that is if you don't crate them when you step out for a few hours). |
Didn't find exactly what you're looking for? Search again here:
Custom Search
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|