Learning to groom for show
So... my question here, is do any of you have any info or links to info, step by step, preferably with pictures, on how to groom an OES specifically for conformation showing? I want to enter her in a local show at the end of June, that's the earliest she'll be old enough, just for practice for her and I really, and the grooming won't be as much of an issue when she still has puppy coat, so that essentially gives me a year for Dancer and I to learn the show coat groom...lol.... |
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| I know NEOESR has a couple of videos available, but I don't know if it goes into line brushing. One of them is for dogs in show coats.
http://www.neoesr.org/videos.htm Hope this helps. |
Line brushing is how you want to brush for show. The main thing is not to take out the undercoat or cut out any mats. First, part the hair down the middle of the back lengthwise and use a pin brush without the little balls on the end of each pin. Always be sure that you are seeing the skin so you know you are getting all the hair. You hold the hair down with one hand and brush a very thin line away from you moving gradually down the length of the body. You can use a spray bottle with water to spray each row before you brush. Then you return to the head with the brush and make another line down the length of the body. Brush the muzzle and face toward the nose, always continuing to part and brush. Also brush up on the legs and I use a slicker to finish the feet and bottom of the legs. Use a comb on the ears and muzzle. I don't think I mentioned that the dog should be lying first on one side then the other. That way you can get the tummy and the underside of the legs. Be careful of the "armpits" as they tend to develop mats because of the legs rubbing on each other. Use a comb on the top of the head, also. Then comes the trimming. The rear should be trimmed flat and the feet round. Many of the show dogs are clipped much more than that. I have the breeder who is helping me trim the rear. I do OK on the feet but always screw the rear up. If you go on the web, there are some sites with very good instructions for grooming. It takes practice, but again the thing you do not want to do is groom out the undercoat if you are going to show. So no slicker brushes except on feet, muzzle or ears. Best of luck and know you can always contact your breeder for any help you may need. 
Sandy, Oliver, Winston and baby Bentley |
| Thank you! |
| Willowsprite,
I know this thread is a bit stale but have you received enough information? I would be glad to offer a few opinions if needed. Where about's in Ontario are you? We are in Ottawa and are always looking to find other OES in the area. |
| More info is always good!
I'm in Lindsay, Ontario, about 4 hours from you. Diane Buckland (Tarawood, OESOCC) is mentoring me on all things OES, which is great, and after the holidays we plan to get together so she can show me more things hands on. In the mean time she has given me a list of things to aquire to make it easier, certain grooming tools, etc... and I've begun getting a few things at a time. I'm hoping to get to a few shows beginning in February.... but as of now I'm not sure yet which ones are for sure. The specialty is in Toronto this year, which is awesome! I am so excited about that! LOL Anyway, any tips and pointers you may have are welcomed.... I know a lot about the breed, a lot about animal health and animal sciences, and have even shown before, but not an OES. This is a whole new world to me! LOL |
| Willowsprite,
Ah Diane, the dean of Bobtails in Canada!! If you are being mentored by Diane then there is nothing more I can offer to teach you. The best I can do is "help with your homework"! That also means that Dancer is an excellent dog. Virgil Tiberius Lindon, aka Tarawood's Invincible Explorer is our current show project. He was shown somewhat at the beginning of last season and got a BOB in his first show, first day out for two points but after that we had virtually no breed competition and we were unable to break through at group! Frustrating but oh well, we will try again this year. No MATTER WHAT we WILL be at the national specialty this year with Virgil, hopefully championed at that time and very probably Martin Zephram Lindon, aka Valubal Martin In Motion, as a class dog unless he surprises us with good results quickly after Virgil is finished. I don't know what grooming tools and equipment you have purchased yet but I will recommend that if you don't yet have one you purchase a grooming table and a removable arm as soon as possible(an arm that clamps on independantly rather than one with an arm bracket "fitted" onto the table surface). This will benefit both Dancer, a familiar known place of comfort for grooming at the shows, and yourself by keeping back stresses to the minimum. And the larger the table the better!! Anyway feel free to send any questions my way if you need homework help but Diane will guide you well. |
| Thank you very much... I'm blushing....
I look forward to meeting you at the specialty then! I think I will have both of my two girls there. I know it is in the fall 2005 in Toronto, but I don't think a final date is set yet? Dancer should be about 19-21 months by then depending on when it is, and Sky is six months younger than Dancer. The grooming table you are speaking of is on my list of things for Christmas, LOL, if not then, definitely right after. Diane is wonderful... she really is the epitome of the breed in Canada... and further. |
| Hi guys. sorry have to step in with my wee bit, correct if I'm wrong , but for show grooming the undercoat does come out, on a show dogs outline if you leave all of the undercoat in is only going to make the outline stick out not lie flat, again maybe you do things differently but we try and get as much loose undercoat out as possible,and we never ever use a slicker.
line brushing is correct but to tease the knots with fingers or brush or very lightly with a comb, Stacy I shall send you diagrams on the way to brush the coat for the ring once it has been gone over if that is any help. Huggles B-eye |
| B-eye... as far as I know we are not to remove too much undercoat either, except perhaps around the shoulders etc.... I don't use a slicker, I have one, but don't use it. I think I am supposed to use it for finishing touches only, feet etc.... |
| B-eye,
In Canada and the US anyway the undercoat should, for the most part, be left in. There are a few areas, notably around the back of the neck neck and white shawl over the shoulders that need to be fairly thoroughly stripped out to show the neck length and, in conjunctinon with a properly cut fantail, amplify the fact that the dog is higher at the hips than the withers but other than that the undercoat should stay. Sometimes in a dog with a short shawl some of the grizzle area over the shoulders is stripped to help with the topline presentation as well. If your dog is really heavily coated then the transition area between the chest and shoulder fronts might be partially stripped of undercoat to help show the "taper" from front to rear (wider at the rear) but that is really about it for undercoat stripping on North American show dogs. The Standard calls for a double coat and if it is all stripped out the judge can't make a decision about proper coat structure. Just a quick note, can discuss further if you want. |
| I agree in some respects as to what you are saying but i disagree on undercoat it is the undercoat that mats, and this must be removed, no not all of it , i know the breed standard well.had oes for 30 years, all i was suggesting was the undercoat must be thinned out otherwise you will have a rather large wide dog LOL. anyway differen people do different things those that need help take what they want from all thats offered, the only way to learn really is by doing it yourself, no such thing as a perfect dog in the ring.
Huggles B-eye |
| Yep, excellent points B-eye.... I appreciate all the tips I can get from everyone. I have a lot to learn! LOL And that is exactly the best way to go about it, take in all the information you can get, then sift through it all and see what applies to the individual, what works best for each dog as well...
Thank you |
| hello. I'm new here and hope oneday to figure out how to get a pic posted on my avitar of my OES but I found a good link to grooming and thought I'd share it with you all. I got my Rufus from a backyard puppy breeder and don't think I'll ever do that again after reading many of your posts. I am interested in keeping his fur show quility though. He seems to be turning out to be a great dog. He's only 7mths old now. He's a little hyper and pig headed, but I think that's the norm with this breed. I really enjoy reading everyone's posts and it has helped me alot with raising him. I've seen some awefully cute OES's in here. My favorites are the ones with them in the snow. I live in the Alabama, so we don't get much snow, poor Rufus may never get that happyness. : ( But anyhow, just thought I'd quit silently lurking around here and finally say hello. Here's the link and hope it helps.
http://www.arancee.com/arancee/Grooming.htm |
| Welcome to the forum SirWagsMom!
That link is an EXCELLENT link, i have it in my favorites list. They give step by step instructions and even diagrams that explain grooming almost like a groom-by-number, it's awesome! |
Welcome SirWagsMom! I keep my dogs in full coat but I don't keep them in "show coat". I opt to remove alot of the undercoat to prevent matting (and spending every waking moment brushing  ). Show coats are very hard to maintain in my opinion and you can get a similar look with less maintenance.
This is the age that you can blink and he'll matt up (with his adult coat coming in) - oh how I don't miss those days!
Good Luck with Rufus! Look forward to seeing his pictures! Kristen |
| All,
Show grooming varies according to where you show, both because of variations in the actual national standard and the geographic "time sensitive" interpretations of that standard. Canada and the US groom very similarly but there are minor differences, Australia is very different from either of us and New Zealand is different yet again. Britain is "another kettle of fish" but seems to lead most of the European nations, for now. As such you really need to consult experts from your own show jurisdiction. While general advise such as that which has been offered earlier in this thead is good it must be reviewed and used only in the context and jurisdiction it is offered. I groom and show in Canada and would not offer anything but generic grooming advise to anyone outside of Canada, I even hedge my advise to Americans. Even in offering generic advise I advise that you check with "local" people who have shown recently. (Accepted practises also change over time so if your reference hasn't shown for 10 - 15 years you need to treat that advise cautiously as well.) B'eye I have no quarrel with you, nor do I dispute the fact that in the United Kingdom a Bobtail's undercoat is stripped out much more extensively than here in Canada and the US. That is the purview of your Kennel Club and the expectations of your judges. If, however, Willowsprite were to strip Dancer and Skye to the extent you advocate both dogs would be severely handicapped in our ring. No matter what other structures and motion standards are set and judged a lot of the impact these dogs have in the ring is due to their coat in terms of length, balance and fullness (fullness being a result of having sufficient undercoat to cause the guard coat to stand up). Not necessarily correct but it is a fact, lamentable or otherwise! Willowsprite, please review this undercoat stripping aspect with a local breeder/groomer/handler or if necessary with me by private message. I also went to the website referrenced earlier in the thread: http://www.arancee.com/arancee/Grooming.htm Personally I don't like the "bottom-up" approach to grooming, and yes I have tried it. To me, and all those who have mentored me, in both OES and Afghan Hounds (yep multi-breed family), the best way to groom Bobtails is line grooming from the back (top) down to the belly and feet with appropriate variations in brush-out direction for feet, underbellies, chest and head. Final "fluffing" or "volumizing" of the coat is reasonably well covered on this website. I find books or videos published in North America for the purposes however to be better for those grooming/showing here. Proper tools and their appropriate applications are of course critical to successful grooming, show or pet presentation. I have the gamut of brushes and combes from regular pin brushes, course combs through slickers, varying sizes of fine combs all the way to matt rakes although the further down this list the more rare the use. And, again as I mentioned earlier, a grooming table is essential for the comfort of both you and the dog as well as the dog's safety. Remember these are moderate sized dogs with males often approaching 100lbs (45Kg) whose centre of mass is well off the geometric centre of the table on which they lie. Please ensure you but a proper"grooming table" or construct one of high quality components ensuring a non-slip surface that is easily cleaned and dried. Good luck and feel free to contact me for further information if needed. Carl |
| Carl I think you missing my point or not reading it right , I have Never said ALL the undercoat must come out, only in the appropriate places which I am sure everyone read. It's interesting you mention that you dont like they "Bottom brushing". and the arancee.com website grooming tips.
This is actually on your Canadian OES website???? Huggles B-eye |
| Diane told me the same thing Carl, in fact she said not to touch it at all, and to wait until I learn how in person.
B-eye, I don't think Carl was disputing anything in your post, just pointing out the differences in various countries. I am going to be buying a grooming table after xmas from www.petsupplyhouse.ca , which looks like an excellent site to get grooming tools from. For now, I just use the floor, but I haven't actually done any extensive "show grooming" yet. So Carl, you recommend starting from the top? Do you mean start with the head and work down from there? Or start at the top of the withers and work down and then do the head last? |
| WillowSprite,
I have been away since Thursday so I am just now catching up on my e-mail and lists such as forum.oes. Anyway, an explanation of top down line brushing in text only - going to be a challenge but here's my attempt. 
 First a brief aside, get as large a grooming table as possible. Most readily available tables are 24" x 36" but if you can get one 42 or 48" long and a bit wider then all the better  to provide good support with a bit of extra room. Remember that a table is a long term asset and any money spent up front to get the best you can possibly afford is well worth it. (I still have our first grooming table from almost 30 years ago. Granted it has a new top surface but the legs are the same and still better than others I have used.) The dog will always "shift" around the table over the course of a grooming session and the extra room means greater safety and fewer "re-centerings" of the dog. Depending on your height you may well want to get a stool to sit on while grooming, if you have to lean down to brush then your back will quickly suffer  not a good thing!. For about half the time while brushing my boys I sit on a regular dining chair, my height, table height and size of my boys combination just works out so a regular chair works for me  but check your own situation and get what is appropriate to you.
Okay. Envision your dog lying on her side on a grooming table, her back parallel and close to one long side centred so that both her nose and butt are supported on the table with no "overhang". Her neck will be basically "level with her back" and quite close to the table edge. Her legs will be pretty much straight out and feet may well slightly hang over the opposite long side. She needs to be comfortable on the table as this is the basic position for 80-85% of the time on the table. You need to be sitting, or standing, on the same side of the table as her back so the body is close to you and feet furthest away. As you look at her, her back, neck and skull define a roughly straight line which will become a basic reference for you. The first thing you will want to do is briefly AND superficially brush the coat so it lies down much the way it falls while the dog is standing. This then shows the spine much better and you can start the line grooming. Note that "Line Grooming" is basically what hairdressers refer to as a back combing technique and ensures that all the coat is groomed free of matts before being laid down and "primped" into final presentation.
Establishing the first "line" is always the most difficult because of the coat's pre-grooming condition and hair being crossed when the dog is laid down. (Lay your dog down into the position described above, don't get her to sit and then lie by herself as she will rarely centre herself on the table which will end up making things more difficult. ) Envision a line parallel to Dancer's spine about 1-1.5 inches down her body. Brush the hair back, opposite to the natural direction of growth, all the way down to the skin. Take your time and be gentle so that you don't break the guard coat or tear out undercoat that isn't loose and ready to come out of its own volition. You may have to hold back the bulk of the coat with your non-brushing hand to help the line form, especially for the first few lines but as you progress down the torso the hair will stay where you set it more easily. Anyway this first line will be essentially parallel to the spine and table edge and will run from hip to withers, perhaps onto the neck depending on how Dancer is lying. It should be a definite sharp parting, hair above (closest to the spine) laying smooth towards the table edge (against the grain so to speak), hair below it, closer to her sternum and belly ungroomed but laying "with the grain". Anytime you encounter a knot or "tight" areas of coat groom these out, possibly using a grooming comb, slicker or matt rake as necessary. Be very cautious with any of these dematting tools as it will be all too easy to strip out otherwise healthy undercoat if you are too vigourous or energetic.
With the first line established envision the next line no more than 1.5 inches below it (further away from the spine) . For your first grooming sessions use a finger to manually select a portion, perhaps 4 inches, of the new line and lay the ungroomed hair back against the grain and then brush it out as you did the first line. Section by section the second line will form and replace the first line. When it is fully developed the "parting" is a bit further down Dancer's body and will extend further into the neckline and somewhat beyond the hips. You need to repeat this process untill the entire torso has been brushed and is laying towards the spine (against the grain). It is basically a simple but repetitive and time consuming routine. The closer each line is to the previous one the more thorough will be your grooming. If you can decrease the increment between lines to 3/4 of an inch or even 1/2 inch the better will be the results.
You will very quickly become acquainted with several problem areas. First the tender area just forward of the back leg. Dancer will undoubtedy try to cover this area with her leg especially if there are any knots or tight areas. Be insistant but gentle holding her leg back with one hand and brushing with the other. Second will be the rump itself. This area curves in both directions and the anus itself is very tender. Take time to brush this area in very small increments and avoid brushing over the anus directly, you can easily scratch it inadvertantly, especially with a slicker brush. This is also the time to remove any "cling-ons, dingleberries or skid marks" that may be present. Third problem area is the neck, ears and face combination. Once a line has progressed to where it includes an ear it isn't really worthwhile working down the face at the same time as the torso. From the point at which this line forms the front end of the line should be the shoulder/chest intersection. Come back and complete the head later, I usually leave the head until the torso and both legs have been complete. The line that "completes" the torso will run from low on the front shoulder, through the sternum and about midway through the back thigh. At this point turn your attention to one leg or the other, I always go to the back leg first. Continue to line groom the leg from the same side of the table as far as you can reach. Once you can no longer reach comfortably, go around to the other side of the table and complete the leg all the way down to the foot. Care needs to be taken here not to scratch the skin or pull the achilles tendon by accident. Note that you have only line groomed the outside of the "top" or exposed leg. At this point lift that leg and line groom the inside of the "lower" or hidden leg. In this area you will probably prefer to go bottom up just because of the room around Dancer' belly. This can be a bit of a contortion act, holding one leg up, grooming the other leg and trying to keep the dog still as she will probably kick until she has learned the process. (This is also a reason to follow the same routine as exactly as possible every time you groom. Martin and Virgil are now just getting into the habit of knowing what comes next and actually helping by moving their leg/arm to assist my access. Punk, after many years of grooming would lift his arm or open his legs as much as he physically could. It made grooming so much easier and he would often fall asleep.) With the outer top leg and inner lower leg now complete return to the original side of the table and do the to front leg. As with the back line groom as far as you can comfortably reach. At this point you need to hold the front leg at the line and lift it gently to expose the ungroomed inside. Line groom that until the inner and outer line form a "ring" around the leg and then proceed down to and including the feet. (As you are holding the dog's arm up you are physically moving up relative to the table surface but are progressing down the dog's arm.) Torso and both legs should now be done and you can turn to either the head or chest. To do the chest hold the leg against the torso but pointed back towards Dancer's rear knee exposing the chest and under neck area. Envision a line on the chest extending from the throat to the base of the chest roughly parallel to the line of her armpit. Groom to establish this line and then proceed to move this line down the chest towards the table. Hair here can get very thick so be careful to keep your lines as close as possible to ensure a thorough grooming. Finally the head can be completed. The last line at about the ear level will probably have been "lost" by now. Re-establish it and progress down towards the chin/neck. The ear needs to be done as a seperate area of grooming both inside and out. Be especially careful around the eyes and be careful not to pull the hair on the muzzle or under the chin too much. This can get very tight or matted with food debris or dribble. If need be treat with it with a cleanser and dry completely before final grooming. Dancer should now be laying with all her hair back groomed. It can be groomed to lay in the proper direction with a very shortened reverse process. Brush the hair down starting at the feet and proceed up the legs and body to the spine. As the hair should be completely free of matts and tightness the lines can be seperated by as much as a couple of inches and each line will fall back quite readily . When this is done get Dancer to stand up and go over the entire side grooming the hair down one more time. Finally you have the first side done!
Because of "overlap" the first side actually grooms slightly more than half the dog so don't be too despondent over the time that has been taken and the prospect of doing it all over again. You can groom alternate sides in successive grooming sessions which is easier for both you and Dancer while learning the procedure but ultimately it is far better to groom both sides in a single session. That way you know the dog is completed and she learns to behave for the whole process. Come show day you can't get away with just her left side being groomed. The judge will primarily see the dog from one, the "show", side but will see both sides on examination and when running individual patterns.
There is an awful lot of information here in one post and it is made more daunting by a lack of pictures. Please don't hesitate to ask for further explanations. If necessary I can get a few photos next time I groom Martin or Virgil - Virgil is on the "block" tonight". To me it is so second nature that I don't think about it and may not have explained it in sufficient detail. It is also possible that I have forgotten something because I do it so much and after many many hours it is ingrained into a routine. Hope this helps. Carl |
| Nice post. I don't think it matters, but do you situate the do with their spine closest to you and brush towards you, or legs closest and brush away? I have done both and legs closest, brushing away seems more comfortable to me.
Thanks |
| Thank you so much Carl! What a wonderful step by step explaination, you just made my life a whole lot easier. LOL
I would absolutely LOVE to see pics of your dogs during the grooming process to get a visual as I read. I'm going to print this one off and keep it somewhere safe. Again, thank you thank you thank you! LOL |
| El Gato,
Thanks for the positive comment. Predominantly I sit facing their spine and hence brush towards myself. When it gets to the last 1/3 of their torso I need to stand up, still brushing towards myself. However for the lowest reaches of the back legs I sit at their feet (yes they are the bosses and they know I honour them  ) and brush away from myself.
Grooming is, for the most part, a very personal activity and although there are basic precepts application of those precepts can vary widely from one person to the next. My only caution in this is to ensure that what you do for your own comfort does not compromise the dog's comfort and willingness to cooperate, if so you will be in "a world of hurt". These guys are too big and strong to force into grooming if they set their minds against it!! Carl |
| Impressive detail! Wow! This is a wonderful post for all of us to learn from - whether we are showing or not! Thanks for taking the time Carl!
Kristen |
| Wow Carl... That was very informative, you seem to know your way around the neghborhood.
Thanks for sharing that valuable info! |
| All,
Thanks for the positive comments on today's post about "line grooming, top down" . After literally thousands of hours grooming I had better know my way around that neighbourhood ! I still can't clip or scissor beyond the fantail worth a darn  but I will learn - two boys in show coat to be shown in the 2005 season makes that an imperative!! Yikes!!
Since there seems to be a general interest in seeing grooming photos I'll make a point of getting some and posting them in small file size here. If any of you then feel they are worthwhile I can send you larger better resolution photos privately. Please however give me a bit of time to do this - even without Christmas coming keeping up with my gang is pretty much a full time job so extra projects like this take a bit of time.
Thanks and Cheers Carl |
| Well Carl --you've said it all. my only critisism is we never ever use slicker brushes, certainley wouldnt use it on my head so wouldnt inflict it on my dog, second i only groom one side per session, not fair to have the dog lying still for so long and as you said it does take a long time to line brush,30 years in OES I know its tedious for us as well. but then thats just UK preference.
Huggles B-eye |
| Hi all,
I have been advised by Michele that backcombing is the same as teasing. Big Terminology Oops  . Teasing the hair is NOT something to do while line grooming  so please ignore that particular term. Everything else in my line brushing: top down post remains the same.
Hey give me a break for confusing hairdresser terms, I'm just an engineer....
Carl |
| Carl,
When you're able, go ahead and send the photos in large resolution. I'll size them appropriately for the forum, and perhaps, with your permission and with you getting all the "credit", I'll make a "static" page for it as well for the "other half" of this website. You posts have been super! Thanks so much for being a part of our oes community. |
| Hi all:
As a groomer I am learning so much from this forum! You all are so well informed. I have looked on the web site and read all of your posts. I guess I have alot to learn about an old english coat. I am a hairdresser also and tend to treat all hair the same. It's interesting the different rules that apply to different countries. Thank you all!
Blue Star's Mom--May P.S. Blue Star is grown alot at 3 months! |
| Thank you Carl, this is great and informative. I know this might have been said before but what is done to the show dogs coat? I look forward to photos. Right now all the sheepies on the forum are busy hiding their brushes(only kidding) Oreo was groomed on Friday and she brushed out a lot of his under coat he still has a tremendous coat and is in a puppy cut. Thank you again! |
| Last Friday I washed and blew out all three of ours. My shoulders and back were pretty sore for a day or so, but to see all three so clean and beautiful for the holidays it was worth it. I live near a pet wash, where you go there to bathe you animals and they clean up after you. For 15 bucks to have all the professional equipment that you can't afford at home it is so worth it and the lady who owns it is the BEST! |
| Carl.... I wondered about that too... my mother is a hairdresser and I've always thought backcombing meant teasing...lol... but I thought you meant something else by it. LOL
Ron, I think your idea of doing a static page with Carl's grooming tips and pictures is an awesome idea!! I printed off the post and intend to laminate it. LOL Carl, if I am ever lucky enough to raise a litter, I am planning on including a comprehensive booklet on care, feeding, grooming, supplies, behavior, and a few funny anecdotes. Would you allow me to include this in it as well? Of course, your name as the author would be included. |
| I edited that last post because I had a wee typo, I had said my mother was a "HARI dresser" and I doubt she'd appreciate that much. |
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