Breeding Lines
And I really don't think much of selling a dog with a spay or neuter contract. I think it is a little unfair if a breeder can breed these quaility puppies that they think they have then why not pass the quaility on, To the right person. I'M not saying that you should sell a puppy to just anyone either. But think about it??? If we all did this spay neuter contract would there be any quaility OES left??? Well let's just not break up the bloodlines. Let us breed our sires to their daughters. OK I just can't see that at all. But AKC say's this is right??? I wouldn't do it. Maybe that's why I turned away from AKC And so many other's did also. They don't give us the chance to break up the bloodline to get the quaility dog that were entitled to. Neither does the breeder with the spay or neuter contract. Question??? For those people who do those contract's. Where did you buy your DOG'S?? Did you get a contract? Should you have? If you feel you have to give one why didn't you get one? Are you better? Are you a better breeder? Do you know this? If you get to breed a quaility dog then why can't I?? I may be the best breeder in the world. With a AKC best in show champion sitting at my side waiting for a dam. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN SPAY OR NEUTER CONTRACT. It just don't make sense. THINK ABOUT IT! |
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| And I really don't think much of selling a dog with a spay or neuter contract. I think it is a little unfair if a breeder can breed these quaility puppies that they think they have then why not pass the quaility on, To the right person. I'M not saying that you should sell a puppy to just anyone either. But think about it??? If we all did this spay neuter contract would there be any quaility OES left??? Well let's just not break up the bloodlines. Let us breed our sires to their daughters. OK I just can't see that at all. But AKC say's this is right??? I wouldn't do it. Maybe that's why I turned I've been up all night so I need another injection of coffee I guess... Spay Neuter? Limited Registration? Open Registration? Sell to everyone to breed? Rescue? Show Breeder? Hobby Breeder? Responsible Breeder? Worked for years to build a reputation? Health Guarantee? Internet? Won't sell puppy because because don't want to share the bloodline? Geez! I ned more then one injection of of coffee this morning....... |
| OOPS! I forgot to hit the quote button!!!!!!!!!Spay Neuter? Limited Registration? Open Registration? Sell to everyone to breed? Rescue? Show Breeder? Hobby Breeder? Responsible Breeder? Worked for years to build a reputation? Health Guarantee? Internet? Won't sell puppy because because don't want to share the bloodline? Geez! I ned more then one injection of of coffee this morning.......
ot to hit the quote ......I said I need to get some sleep .. |
| They don't give us the chance to break up the bloodline to get the quaility dog that were entitled to......................... TO GET THE QUALITY DOG THAT WE ARE ENTITLED TO??????????? I said I wasn't getting in on this Puppyfind discussion anymore...... But this has nothing to do with Puppyfind....... If some Breeder has a worked their rear off building bloodline and kennel ........THey do not have to share that bloodline with anyone .......They did all the work.... But, to say there is no reason for a spay neuter contract is beyond crazy!!!!!!!!!!! Build your own kennel and bloodline!!!!!!!!! Mercy!!!!!!!!!! Kaye |
| Yes It's so easy for you to say!!!!!! Well let tell you. NO! Let me ask you, where did you get your dog's from????? Build your own bloodline that must mean you are one of those breeders that do breed Sire to Daughter. Keep a restricted blood line and not breaking it up. I really wonder where you did get your dog's. |
| There is nothing wrong with breeding a sire to a daughter if you know what you are doing. and are not doubling up on bad qualities. A knowledgeable breeder knows what they are doing.
As far as producing puppies are concerned, I think that anyone producing puppies should have to have a licence or permit to do that. To prove that they have taken the time to learn all that it takes to produce top-quality dogs. Where do you think all the rescues, throw-away, and second-hand dogs that are brought into this world come from? People who do it for the almight dollars, and don't have a clue. It is easy to make puppies, and anyone can...but that does not make it right. If you cannot find a good breeder to mentor you, who can help you get your kennel going then there is a reason for that. Join an OES Breed Club, and get to know how it is done right....With a lot of work, and a lot of money, and a lot of heartbreak. |
Anonymous wrote: Yes It's so easy for you to say!!!!!! Well let tell you. NO! Let me ask you, where did you get your dog's from????? Build your own bloodline that must mean you are one of those breeders that do breed Sire to Daughter. Keep a restricted blood line and not breaking it up. I really wonder where you did get your dog's. You need to calm down a little here before you start jumping people out..... Just step back and take a breath!!!!! Just because someone won't sell you a puppy that you want from a certain bloodline.......No I did not in breed.....I bred for despositon and Health not confirmation ......All of mine we sold with limited registration....I could have changed that at 2 years as the breeder if I wanted to.. I am sorry that you are so up set about this.But, You really have no right to tell a breeder who or whom they can sell their Babies too. I understand somethings I didn't understand when I was a breeder.....I look totallly from the other side of the fence since I do rescue.... I am not trying to be hateful about this...This is My Opinion....Kaye |
| I think it's great that breeders have puppy buyers sign a spay/neuter contract or offer limited AKC registration. My personal feelings about breeding with other breeder's dogs is that it is a priviledge that you earn. You show their dogs and you are mentored at the same time. Once they trust you as having the welfare of the breed, first & foremost, then they will let you breed to their dogs. I wish more breeds followed some of the same regiments the the Old English Sheepdog Club of America did and maybe there would even less in puppy mills. |
guess I missed a big topic again... |
Quote: "Anonymous" I may be the best breeder in the world. With a AKC best in show champion sitting at my side waiting for a dam. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN SPAY OR NEUTER CONTRACT. It just don't make sense. THINK ABOUT IT!
We have no intentions of breeding our dog. Not only did I sign a contract with the breeder and an OESCA Code of Ethics but mostly because we are in no way qualified. It's more than having that "champion" sitting at your side waiting for a mate. All the top breeders I have met agonize over the bloodlines they consider and have researched pedigrees back to the beginnings of the breed. Most won't breed to another's dog unless they've "paid their dues" in the OES world. Most won't sell to just any individual off the street. You have to pass muster with the breeder as being a good "puppy parent" and usually get put on a waiting list. Most good breeders don't breed often enough to meet the demand. If you aren't patient enough to take the time, show the interest and "pay your dues" don't be surprised if you don't get the puppy from the kennel of your dreams. Puppyfind may fill the void but unfortunately, a lot of damaged, ill-bred living creatures come into Rescue all too often via this route. Quality breeders have their share of heartbreaks as well but take responsibility for the results of their actions. Why don't you become a member of our forum rather than signing in as "Guest"? |
| Bosley's mom, actually, genetically speaking there is a LOT wrong with inbreeding so closely.
It was necessary in the beginning to set breed type, but it hasn't been necessary in a long time. Here is a link to an in depth, excellent collection of articles regarding research, breeding etc. I would prefer to link directly to the original site, but it appears to be malfunctioning, so this site seems to have just compiled the articles. http://www.netpets.com/dogs/reference/g ... bragg.html |
Anonymous wrote: I really don't think puppy find is to blame here at all!!! If any buyer does not ask question after question it their own fault. Say you adopting a child. Would you send money for a child that you haven't even seen in person?? From a total stranger??? Well I sure wouldn't! It's the same thing with dog's. NO DIFFERENCE. That child would be a part of your family for years, just as a dog would. You must ask questions???? Get phone numbers. Ask for references, do your job. Don't just sit back send money and wait for someone to send you a good quality show dog. YES there are some people out there that will scam you. But you can find that anywhere. You your self have to be careful!!!
And I really don't think much of selling a dog with a spay or neuter contract. I think it is a little unfair if a breeder can breed these quaility puppies that they think they have then why not pass the quaility on, To the right person. I'M not saying that you should sell a puppy to just anyone either. But think about it??? If we all did this spay neuter contract would there be any quaility OES left??? Well let's just not break up the bloodlines. Let us breed our sires to their daughters. OK I just can't see that at all. But AKC say's this is right??? I wouldn't do it. Maybe that's why I turned away from AKC And so many other's did also. They don't give us the chance to break up the bloodline to get the quaility dog that were entitled to. Neither does the breeder with the spay or neuter contract. Question??? For those people who do those contract's. Where did you buy your DOG'S?? Did you get a contract? Should you have? If you feel you have to give one why didn't you get one? Are you better? Are you a better breeder? Do you know this? If you get to breed a quaility dog then why can't I?? I may be the best breeder in the world. With a AKC best in show champion sitting at my side waiting for a dam. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN SPAY OR NEUTER CONTRACT. It just don't make sense. THINK ABOUT IT! I think maybe I missed something, but in case this is just some random rant. I have thought about spay and neuter contracts for a few years, and think it is for the best of the breed. IF, I was breeding OES, I would make sure I had quality lines, that had been tested for numerous things, I would also ONLY buy from a breeder who sold their pups under limited registration. Then, I would expect them to put a health guarantee on every pup that came from their kennel. If I then got a breeder quality male/female from that breeder, I would expect them to not give me rights to breed this dog unless it conformed to the standard, and passed numerous preliminary tests. If, I was a breeder, I would make sure I only sold my puppies as pets, until as a breeder, I became so experienced in conformation, that I could choose the best puppy to keep as a breeder or to sell as a breeder. You mention you and others turned away from AKC, does this mean you are a breeder who doesn't register your dogs? If you do, what organization do you register under. I also do not agree with that close of inbreeding. I think Willowsprite's site that was posted is very informative. You mention not having enough quality OES left. IMO, the problem is that not enough OES are sold under limited registration, which leaves anyone who buys that pup, to ignorantly think there is some profit to be made by breeding and will go out to anyone who has puppies in the paper and breed. Those people are not informed enough to breed, they will become the BYB's of the world, continuing to breeding OES that will have medical problems. I personally think, that pediatric spay and neutering the pet quality pups is the best thing to do, IF one can find a vet knowledgeable and experienced in early altering in pups. The "best breeder" is one who is honest and does everything in his/her power to make sure that their breeding dogs are of healthy lines (4-5 generations back and further) not just a generation or two. They do what they can to make sure they continue breeding the healthiest dogs. If a problem arises, they are honest about it, will retire that line, and start again. They don't look at the profit made, but the families they are making happy by breeding and making sure that every pup that leaves is of sound health and temperament. A good breeder also realizes that the learning never ends, and mentors and other experienced breeders can help you along. My post is not meant to offend you, but to make you think of the repercussions of not having a contract, and explaining to your families that adopt a puppy from you, that breeding is not for everyone and the pup they are receiving is of pet quality and is sold with the understanding that it is to be spayed or neutered. I don't see where the problem lies. Sincerely, Stormi |
| I know some breeders in this BUSINESS that think that all it takes is Bloodline and Pedigree. "Oh Boy if I had one of those dogs with that pedigree I could really do good"..... There is so much more to it then bloodline and pedigree.... If that breeder with the terrific bloodline and terrific pedigrees doesn't do what they should do then they are no differnt then any back yard breeder...It is preparing the Momma before sehe is bred......IT is not breeding her everytime she comes in heat. IT is taking care of her nutriently and the Babies after they are bone...It is Socializing them and not keeping them in cages......It is doing what you say you will do...Reputation is everything in this BUSINESS......Becuse I can guarantee it will come back and bite you in the butt. IF you start having problems { every breeder does sooner or later } with a Momma ,have her spayed.......I have bought many females for breeding purposes for a lot of money and if I saw something in the Girl I didn't like , I had her spayed and found her a Furever Home....Sure you can't please everyone.But you can back those Babies if you have done your research and know that your lines are clean. AS Long as It is done for the all Mighty Dollar and not The Passion Of THe Breed no breeder will every succeed......... Kaye |
Quote: Bosley's mom, actually, genetically speaking there is a LOT wrong with inbreeding so closely.
I didn't mean that the way it sounded. I just wanted to clarify that in a pedigree if it is noted that a sire was bred to a daughter, or a dam to her son, that does not always mean it is a crappy breeder. Often show puppies are co-owned exactly for that purpose, but it should only be praticed by breeders who know their lines and why they are doing it. When I had the breeding/showing bug I have saw many pedigrees with close relatives in them, and even the same grandparents doubled up on both sides. Very knowedgeable and reputable breeders have done it, and will do it on occasion, and it does not mean they are bad. I did a search and found several kennels with articles on why they will do it, and what the result was, but folks can do their own searches like I did. I did find this article which was quite informative...from a breeder's perspective, not a doctors. http://www.chromadane.com/practicalgen.htm On the other hand, the backyard breeder who keeps a puppy to breed with its parent to avoid paying stud fees is a whole other ball game. It should not be done without knowing exactly what you are doing, or it could be desasterous. There is a difference. |
| Ok so I have a question about the spay/neuter contracts. Maybe I missed the answer in the previous discussions but.... My experience has been that yes there was a spay and neuter contract with every OES I have bought... but I had the option of not doing the contract if I wanted to breed but the breeder I got my pup from wanted one of the pups if I did decide to breed my pup. Do does that not exist anymore or did we just not talk about that yet? Also, what about those people who buy pups because they want to show them. In the so many shows the animal has to be intact in order to be allowed to even show so they dont sign the spay and neuter contract either. I dont see a problem with having your clients sign a spay and neuter contract because it limits the amount of pups that could possibly end up in shelters if the owner just wants to breed for the experience or whatever and it also limits the "bad breeding" too. And with bad breeding I mean a pup from a good line with one from a puppy mill or whatever. It protects the line they have going. I think it is in the animals best interest when the spay and neuter contract is signed whent he new family has no intention of breeding that pup and just want them as a pet because there are so many illnesses they could get from remaining intact. Im not a breeder just a veterinary technician so I am speaking from a medical aspect and looking at all the problems and shorter lives that intact animals have so forgive me if I sound a bit biased towards spay and neutering. Thats just my 2 cents. |
OES4ever wrote: Ok so I have a question about the spay/neuter contracts. Maybe I missed the answer in the previous discussions but.... My experience has been that yes there was a spay and neuter contract with every OES I have bought... but I had the option of not doing the contract if I wanted to breed but the breeder I got my pup from wanted one of the pups if I did decide to breed my pup. Do does that not exist anymore or did we just not talk about that yet? Also, what about those people who buy pups because they want to show them. In the so many shows the animal has to be intact in order to be allowed to even show so they dont sign the spay and neuter contract either. I dont see a problem with having your clients sign a spay and neuter contract because it limits the amount of pups that could possibly end up in shelters if the owner just wants to breed for the experience or whatever and it also limits the "bad breeding" too. And with bad breeding I mean a pup from a good line with one from a puppy mill or whatever. It protects the line they have going. I think it is in the animals best interest when the spay and neuter contract is signed whent he new family has no intention of breeding that pup and just want them as a pet because there are so many illnesses they could get from remaining intact. Im not a breeder just a veterinary technician so I am speaking from a medical aspect and looking at all the problems and shorter lives that intact animals have so forgive me if I sound a bit biased towards spay and neutering. Thats just my 2 cents.
In regards to giving someone the option to breed, I'd have to really trust the person and get to know them very well before I would want to allow that. It is so important to protect the breed, like you said, the last thing we want is for someone to breed with a puppymill dog, or a dog of questionable lineage, or even have someone inexperienced take two dogs who may well be from good lines and just put them together without carefully evaluating each strength and fault. In regards to somone wanting to show, they do have to keep the dog intact to show but that does not mean they cannot still be under a non breeding contract. In the US it is called limited registration, in Canada, it is a Non Breeding Agreement. It is put right on the dogs papers that it is not for breeding and therefore if they did breed it they would not be allowed to register the pups. If that is not enough to prevent this from happening, most breeders include a contract stating if the dog is bred, by accident or on purpose under a non breeding agreement, they may be subject to a fine and or having the dog confiscated. At least in Canada they do.... In regard to the illnesses that can happen from remaining intact, for a male dog that is basically cancers of the genitals. It doesn't happen that often, probably no more than in people, and men don't have their genitals removed to prevent illness. In females, same idea, cancers of the reproductive tract are possible, but really don't happen that often. Pyometra is a bigger scare, but if caught early enough can be treated with antibiotics. Cancer is genetic, and a dog out of a healthy bloodline "most likely" doesn't carry the gene, since a female dog with cancer of the uterus would most certainly not be bred, and therefore could not pass that gene down. Another important reason to get a pup from a reputable breeder..... |
| If you buy a "show quality" pup then the breeder may want to use it for offspring, when it is old enough. The contract can differ in content, but basically it will allow for breeding, usually that the original breeder approves of. Normally that could be one of the breeder's stud dogs, or one that the breeder wants to use.
In a case like that the "payment" could be that the first choice puppy out of the litter goes to the breeder supplying the stud dog, and then the second choice to the orginal breeder you got the pup from, if not the stud dog owner. There are variations of this, that are discussed and agreed upon prior to buying the pup. For example, often the pup needs to be shown to their championship first, and this can be by the purchaser or the breeder, depending on the contract. And then the timing for the spay/neuter can also be in there. When there is such an agreement it is called a "co-ownership" and both parties need to sign the registration papers of resulting puppies. I'm sure I am making this way more complicated than it can be, but there are differnent situations that can apply. |
| Yes but even a show quality pup is usually put on a Non Breeding Agreement which is later lifted by the breeder after the dog has passed all health certifications and in many cases attained a championship as well. |
Willowsprite wrote: Cancer is genetic, and a dog out of a healthy bloodline "most likely" doesn't carry the gene, since a female dog with cancer of the uterus would most certainly not be bred, and therefore could not pass that gene down. Another important reason to get a pup from a reputable breeder.....
Frank's breeder had cancer arise in a litter several years back. She completely eliminated that bloodline from her breeding progam to end the future chance of a sick dog. They say that if you breed long enough that you will see every kind of a problem. |
| Definitely, I don't think there is a line out there that hasn't had one problem or another, it's how it's dealt with that is important. |
| Absolutely... nothing in this world will be perfect 100% of the time no matter how careful one is. Kaytee is a puppy from Kaye's breeding line (as are Emma and Darby) and she was bred for disposition and health. There had never been a problem with a birth defect until Kaytee. Kaye did what a RESPONSIBLE breeder would do and did it immediately. She had Kaytee's mama spayed. Could she have had more litters of puppies without a problem? Maybe. But she didn't take the chance and this is an example of someone who was in it for the good of the breed. She also tube fed this puppy around the clock for the first 5 weeks where many breeders would have simply put her down. What a loss that would have been. |
Willowsprite wrote: Yes but even a show quality pup is usually put on a Non Breeding Agreement which is later lifted by the breeder after the dog has passed all health certifications and in many cases attained a championship as well. This is exactly what I do. All my puppies (even show quality pups that may be used for breeding) have non-breeding agreements on them. Once the dog has obtained its Championship, and has all of it's health clearances, I will then lift the non-breeding agreement and I must approve of the stud dog used. This is for my own protection as well as the dogs. Any reputable breeder does these things anyways before they breed a bitch (not necessarily the championship part) so if any potential buyer takes offence to this I have no problem not letting them purchase a pup from me! They would not be breeding for the right reasons. |
That is pretty much the same sort of agreements that we have here too amber.  |
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