|I showed my Collie there about 5 years ago, it was ok. There are a lot of
interesting things to do and see.
|Hi. I haven't been to the show in a number of years. Mom and I used to go and walk around and pet all the dog breeds with long hair. I don't think we ever actually watched the dogs in the ring. I'll take a look at the schedule and see if OES might be on Sunday.|
|I looked at the schedule, finally figured out where they house that information. Looks like their showing sheepdogs every day including Sunday. Sunday it's at 12:20.|
|Hmmm...let me talk to Steve. I hate driving into the city!|
|Make sure you print the coupon at www.ikcdogshow.com
There is also the pet expo March 17-19th in Arlington Heights
|I attended the IKC show in Chicago on Saturday. I enjoyed myself. There were about 10,000 dogs there. I watched them judge the old english sheepdogs and the winner was Smokey, the dog from the Westminster show. He also won the best of the herding group.
He is a very good looking dog. But, I did not like what I saw after the dogs win. They are immediatley shoved back in there cage and the people take other dog breeds out of cages and get them ready for showing. It just seems like a BIG BUSINESS to these winners. These dogs do not seem to be pets and I felt sorry for them. These people have all different breeds and show them hoping to win in all different breed categories.
I feel showing your dog is all an ego trip on the owners part and the dog is a victim of it all. Constant grooming for hours before and during the judging process. I think two breeds are treated unfairly at these shows. The old english sheepdog and the poodle. It seems all other breeds are shown in their natural state except for the old english and the poodle. These dogs have to be primed and have their hair ratted and are not shown in their natural state as when you have them at home. I felt sorry for them.
But as far as the rest of the show, it was great. Lots of vendors and selling of items and freebies also. But there are not many vendors who sell sheepdog items, but I did find a beautiful old english sheepdog pin which I purchased.
I did have a good time and probably will attend again sometime.
I am just happy having my sheepie as a pet and truly enjoying him for what he is.
|I'm sorry you feel that way.
I guess the handlers are real busy and can't devote all of their time to one of their dogs, but I'd but that the owners spend most of their time loving (and grooming) their dogs at home, which is 99% of the time.
|I hope you are right Ron. I do hope that these owners truly love ther dogs and give them a normal life like a chance to get all muddy and dirty and having some fun as sheepies love to do.|
|From what I've seen the "owners" mostly hire a handler and they sit in the stands to watch their dogs perform. That particular handler may be hired from different breeders, and therefore he/she is responsible to show multiple dogs.
Esp in the big ring.
Smaller circuits, they may be handling their own dog and have just one or two in the ring.
Again I'm only a couch observer. It would be terrible if the owners treated them that way, on a reg basis.
But, I did not like what I saw after the dogs win. They are immediatley shoved back in there cage and the people take other dog breeds out of cages and get them ready for showing. It just seems like a BIG BUSINESS to these winners. These dogs do not seem to be pets and I felt sorry for them. These people have all different breeds and show them hoping to win in all different breed categories.
I feel showing your dog is all an ego trip on the owners part and the dog is a victim of it all. Constant grooming for hours before and during the judging process. I think two breeds are treated unfairly at these shows. The old english sheepdog and the poodle. It seems all other breeds are shown in their natural state except for the old english and the poodle. These dogs have to be primed and have their hair ratted and are not shown in their natural state as when you have them at home. I felt sorry for them..
I'm really sorry that you feel this way and I somewhat felt the same way before I started showing Frank so hopefully I can shed some light on your comments:
Regarding crates: Many of the dogs you see in crates at dog shows are conditioned to being in crates since they were puppies. Ie., crate training your dog. Many of them are comfortable inside the crate and I'm sure if you walked around the arena you would have seen many of them sleeping.
Regarding "Big Business"- I guess maybe you missed the ZsaZsa docking thread, but this is a very untrue statement if it's directed towards the owners. In my situation, I owner-handle my dog. I have spent a ton of money already showing, and I'm just getting started. If he gets his championship within his next six months I can easily say I've spent in the thousands and it doesn't include the time spent neglecting my own graphics business. I won't be breeding Frank if/when he ever gets championship. Is it an ego trip for me to win? I think I would say that it's more pride that the hard work that I've done training, conditioning & grooming my dog has actually paid off and gotten my dog noticed. Is my dog a victim? Hardly–he's spoiled rotten. He enjoys the attention he gets from people at the dog shows and he also loves hanging around all of the other dogs. Traveling to a show, and hanging out in a different neighborhood, I would to think might be a nice change from his everyday routine. I also feel that I'm an advocate for the breed, which I guess is a little egotistical, but I make sure that any potential new puppy buyers understand what a high maintenance breed this is, and how much attention they need. Plus I could talk about my dog(s) all day. As far as crating is concerned, he's usually only in the crate when I am going to the restroom, eating lunch or buying dog supplies.
Getting back to the crating issue. I'm sure what you may have been seeing was a handler area. Some owners pay a handler to show their dog, which can be a lucrative business for people like Cathy Kirk who just won Westminster. Other handlers-for-hire earn enough to get to make a modest living, and some of them just do it part time. Owners/breeders will send their dog off for a couple of months to live with a handler especially if they will be traveling. I would have a hard time not having my dog around for a couple of months but I completely understand why it's done, and most dogs complete their championship quickly under a handler's guise. A lot of times a breeding kennel will choose to go this route because they need to stay home and tend to their other dogs/puppies they have at their house. Is this a cruel existance? Some may say so, but they are clean & well cared for. After they get done their championship, most of the dogs go back to living their life of being a pet.
And it's so untrue what you say about only the poodles & the OES getting treated unfairly being primped before a show. Any breeds with any coat have to go through some type of conditioning whether it's an Irish Setter or a Maltese. I see from your photos that your dog is in coat. Is it unfair that you brush it? Do you take your dog to a groomer? The dogs are only primped up for an hour or 2 each show day. They are used to being handled and absolutely do not have a problem being trimmed, brushed, etc.
It's a shame that you didn't get to meet any owner/breeder handled sheepdogs. I think that would have changed your opionion. I would think that you might appreciate all the money and time involved in order to preserve the breed. If it weren't for many of these types of people there might not even be an Old English Sheepdog breed.
I would say that 95% + of the people at dogs shows are there because they LOVE dogs.
|I'm starting to realize that the pleasure one gets from showing their dog is very similar to people and their kids. People dress their kids up and show them off, just like people do with dogs. I definitely think it's a matter of pride one takes in their dog. Many of the handlers don't actually own the dog. Some of the handlers receive payment because of their experience. While I believe many others do it because they love the breed especially if the dog came from their kennel and they want their kennel's legacy to live on in the show arena.|
Annie's Mom wrote:
People dress their kids up and show them off, just like people do with dogs.
Okay, now I'm visualizing people putting their little girls in those beauty pagents. I guess I should have added if I would never force my dog to be shown if I felt he was miserable. I actually have a hard time making him stack/stand still perfectly for the judge because he whole body starts to wriggle as soon as the judge walks up to him. I love the way the sheepdogs look in coat (and without).
Annie's Mom wrote:
People dress their kids up and show them off, just like people do with dogs.
Okay, now I'm visualizing people putting their little girls in those beauty pagents. I guess I should have added if I would never force my dog to be shown if I felt he was miserable.
Sorry, hope noone took that the wrong way! My neighbor's little girl loves to play dress up and comes over to show me. I was also thinking about little baby's with a cute sun bonnet or a little bow or Halloween!
|I am an owner/handler and show my girls. I did not do it for an ego trip or win prizes etc. I have found over the years that since I started to show, had OES since 1978, have been showing since 1991, that I have learned SO much more about the breed. How to groom properly, how to keep a dog in top health and condition and lot's more. Showing is not just about winning it teaches you a lot about them along the way.
All mine have loved the showring, loved the travelling and going different places, meeting different people all over the place. It is a special time for them with me and they love the one on one pampering and attention that we do together. It trains them also to be very abidable dogs as well, have great control with them on the lead etc. etc. If they did not like the whole show scene or stressed out big time because of it, I would not show them. It also helps them to be very social dogs with both people and other breeds.
And yes at home they live a pretty ordinary dogs life, playing and running outside, walkies & getting into all types of mischief like every other dog.
|Ha ha ha, Andy Rooney on 60 Minutes just did a piece on Westminster. He showed a sheepdog all rubber banded up and talked about all of the primping. Plus he commented on the crates and how the dogs probably preferred being in the crates – away from all of the people.|
|Ha ha! He also said the usual joke to another Sheepdog groomer; "Is this the head down here?"|
|I was at the Chicago show on Sunday. I didn't find the sheepdog handlers very friendly. It could be because their showing was in an hour and they were busy primping, but they were rather stand offish.
It was fun to see all the different breeds and the families that picnic at their station together. I think there were more Schnauzers there then any other breed, an entire row of them!
Hendrix's Mom wrote:
didn't find the sheepdog handlers very friendly. It could be because their showing was in an hour and they were busy primping, but they were rather stand offish.
It's best to greet the people and dogs after they've been in the ring. The owners/handlers have to make the best of their few minutes in the ring, so it's understandable that they would be stand offish.
Spectators always wants to see the sheepdogs, even if they don't own the breed. Because they are so darn cute!! Each person that walks up to me while I'm trying to groom before ring time, usually results in Frank standing up and trying to get to the people. I always try to be friendly, but you can imagine how unproductive it is trying to get him ready, so sometimes I try not to make eye contact when people are looking at him.
|I echo Lisaoes and VerveUp's views. The few shows I've been to put a lot of stress on the handlers to get the dog ready for the ring. There are a couple schools of thought on whether an OES should be primped and ratted up or left "natural" looking. As stated earlier, Sheepdogs and Poodles aren't the only dogs that are intensely groomed. At the last show we groomed OES next to several spaniels with their ears twisted up in vet wrap (gauze). Ouch! The groomers were actually taking their scissors cutting stray hairs on spotted dogs to make their spots perfectly even. Made poufing up a sheepdog seem pretty normal.|
|Anyone headed to the show this weekend?|
|Growing up "dog show", I see why it may be hard to understand the whole process if it is new to you.
I will speak from the owner/handler view 1st. You have your dog. You enter the show. You have kept your dog reasonable clean and all brushed out for the last several months in prep for showing. A day or 2 before the show you bathe and dry your dog. Start some basic trimming if they haven't been in the ring in awhile and are overly shaggy (like getting your own hair trimmed to get it's shape back). Drive many miles/hours to the show. Stay in a motel.
Get to the show site and set up your crate, grooming table and stuff. It you are lucky your grooming spot is big enough for a chair for you to sit on! Groom and prep for several hours immediately before your ring time.
Those 2 hours are the absolute busiest of the whole show. No one really has time to talk to others then. Focus is entirely on getting ready for ringtime.
You are in the ring for just minutes. Hopefully all your time energy and money paid off today. If not, you try again tomorrow - new day, new judge, new chance to shine!
The dogs really like to get in their crates and unwind after they are in the ring. They have had intense activity for several hours and really just like to get a drink of water and the time to rest. Also, most like the fan in their crate to cool off!
People with multiple dogs really do need to put one in the crate, and get right back in the ring. Some shows the crates are near ringside, but most are further away. Then you need helpers to hold onto your dog(s) that are not in the ring at that moment.
After showing is the time to talk with people - this is true of every breed. Your best bet is to buy a show catalog. It has the ring times of every breed. It also has the contact info for every person who entered the show. If you miss talking with someone who's dog you liked, you can always contact them later.
Some people hire a handler to show their dog for them. There are many reasons for this. Some are owned by people who lack the ability or interest to show their own dog. Some are people just too busy with work, family, other dogs at home to take every weekend off and go to dog shows. Having a handler show your dog is usually a faster way to get your dog finished (become a show champion). These people's job is going to shows, so they enter virtually every week in a show. You can pick which shows from their list that you want your dog to participate in. Most live with the handler while they are being shown.
Hope this helps!
Chewie's sister Martha is going - cheer for her if you see her!!!
These dogs do not seem to be pets
there may be more than one definition of what it means to be a pet. and if people are only suppossed to buy dogs from qualified breeders, and the only way to be a qualified breeder is to breed dogs closest to the standards, the show is the only way to do that.
It just seems like a BIG BUSINESS to these winners.
I only know of one (respected) OES breeder that supports themselves through their dogs.
|I came upon this forum looking for dog dryers.....I am a product of a dog show family.
We have been showing, breeding, grooming dogs since I was 8 and now I'm 119, lol
My mother was, deseased, and my sister is a professional hander.
I used to go to the Garden when it was the old Garden in NY and go the the Inernational in Chicago when It was at the International Amphitheater.
These dogs tha are shown are taken care of very well, trust me, as some of them are worth quite a bit of money.
As far as grooming, they probably are better taken care of by the show people as the long haired dogs have to be brushed and conditioned daily. The dogs get used to it, just like u get used to washing and hot curling ur hair daily. And let's face it, alot of pet dogs such as OES's don't get brushed hardly at all by pet owners and get stripped once a year.....Now that is cruel. It's hard on the dog believe me.
As far as crate training, I think alot of pet owners should crate train the dogs at an early age. It stops the chewing etc as a puppy, acctually helps potty train them, and gives them a place they can go if they want to be away from everyone.
The show dogs don't live in crates. They only stay in crates when traveling and being at a show. And lets face this too. It keeps the dogs that have a temprament problem or that don't like particular dogs out of harms way.
Also, it is a dog SHOW, and those particular dogs that don't show very well are usually not shown.......they can't win, so if they are shy or something they end up as pets anyway.
Most of the dogs that are on the circut really do like it. It becomes a routine, just like going to work.
My sister used to bring a older retired dog on trips with her because he didn't like staying home without her there.
Well, just have to put my 2 cents in. We happen to know a gal that has had no 1 old english in the country in years past and still shows and breeds them.
Nice board u got here.
|Count me in as another owner-handler. My "show" dogs sleep on my bed, follow me into the bathroom (we are talking OES here, right? ) and go hiking in the woods just like most dogs. What might be stressful to many non-show dogs is largely a non-issue to them; show dogs have to be temperamentally sound and well-socialized; they love going places, love being primped on for a couple of hours - even at home my dogs jockey for position on the grooming table (I mean literally, I usually have to lift a spare dog off...)- and love the attention.
Try leaving a retired dog home and you'll soon find yourself in the proverbial doghouse. NOT getting to go to a show is the bigger issue. Which is why I like to show outdoors where space isn't limited and I can (some times) bring unentered dogs (well, usually Belle) who hang out in their crates, watch me fuss, watch the world go by, take a nap, get taken out periodically to go shopping, go potty, try to steal my lunch, meet some passing kids. I can't say I find the breed ring all that much fun, but that's MY problem, not my dogs. They like it.
As for meeting the handlers, as someone mentioned, after is better. And even then I have people say to me afterwards:
"I was ignored."
"Well, did you introduce yourself?"
"No, but I stood in the area."
Eh, well, so did about 1400 other people - OES handlers aren't psychic. Say hi. Some are friendly, some not so friendly. Don't take it personally. It's like the world in general.
I'll usually try to take the time to talk to people unless it's the last 20 minutes before ring time. At which point I'll ask if they plan on watching breed judging. If they say yes, I say, follow me back here afterwards and you can love on my dog to your heart's content. My favorite interruption was while I was getting Mad ready for the ring at a Syracuse show. Some very sweet people came up to me looking for a stud dog for their pet OES. I equally sweetly sent them to where Madeline Ericksson was grooming her dogs because I figured as head of NYS rescue she probably had lots of experience in being tactful.
I know people who aren't familar with the way things work will sometimes take people being busy or seeming disinterested (called trying to remember where the heck you put your comb!!!) as a snub, but we ARE there for a purpose. I've had little girls come up to me wanting to pet Belle as I'm waiting to enter the agility ring (solution: meet me at the exit in about a minute) and one woman who had just lost her OES crying in Belle's headcoat as I was being called into the rally ring. I was in tears by the time we entered the ring and could barely see the signs. It's a tough balancing act sometimes, so if at first you don't succeed, wait 30 minutes, find the person again and if she seems less preoccupied, talk.
If you really want to meet a bunch of OES breeders/handlers/owners, come to the specialties. There's one just north of Chicago in June, and one just west of Milwaukee in July and I WILL post the info on the July specialty as it's the club I belong to that puts it on -- we have a lunch right after judging; people are welcome to attend (might want to give us a heads up so we know to have enough food) plus a rescue raffle and/or silent auction. It's very relaxed and informal. A much better time to meet people and dogs.
|Can't say it better than all of the other owner handlers!
I got into this 5 years ago with the intent of having a show dog that was a real dog too. A few years later I got Luca, who is involved in not only conformation but also agility, obed, rally, rolling in deer poop, and swiming in show coat in Lake Superior(It took me 6 months to get all of the sand out and I think I managed to get all of the last remminents out prior to him going BOB at Westminster in 2007.... but I don't recommend conditioning a specials coat like that )
Dog shows are very intense for both the dog and the handler for many of the reasons mentioned above. But there is one other thing you should keep in mind. Most dogs sleep during the day...while at a dog show their normal sleep pattern is interupted for a few hours...by the end of a show weekend these dogs are wiped out...and prefer the solitude of thier crate to a million hands touching them. It's a wonder most of the handlers don't join them as most of them are tired and crabby too
For anyone who wants to attend a dog show...please do but don't be afraid to introduce yourself AFTER OES have shown and please try to understand that it can be a long weekend for all involved parties.
Thank you...I will step down from my soap box. Step latter please these legs are short
Hendrix's Mom wrote:
Has anyone ever been to the International Kennel Club dog show at Chicago's McCormick place? I went about 15 or so years ago, I was wondering if it was worth checking out? Their website (www.ikc.com) is terrible. I can't really find start times or anything like that. I'll be going on Sunday.....I'm having the same experience....
|As a non breeder I have 3 dogs who will be shown. Two are specials, one is just starting out. I have a handler for one special who is shown in Canada and was the #3 OES/#16 herding dog last year. I'm certainly not in it for the money, it costs between $2500-$3500 monthly to do this. All of my dogs( I have 5) are first and foremost pets. As Sunny said they roll in poop, chase deer, and have a regular life. One of my older boys hated being in the ring and after 2 shows was never shown again, I don't force them. If they enjoy it that's fine but if they don't that's fine also. The biggest part of a show dogs life is spent just being a dog|
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