Sorry...but here is an educated reason to not crop or bob
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| First let me say that I have mixed feelings about the whole tail docking issue and there are legitimate arguments for both sides.
The reason you were accused of being an animal activist was because of your harsh accusatory tone towards the people on this forum. Obviously you have experience in what an animal experiences with tail docking procedures which validates your opinion/concern. I do have a concern that you are a vet and have such strong feelings about the tail docking & ear cropping issue, because I think a vet should be neutral and objective in their role. I wonder what your feelings are about people wanting to put an aggressive dog to sleep or if someone's dog had cancer and opted not to put their dog through chemotherapy? What about people that feed their dog crappy dog food, doesn't want to use heartworm pills, vaccinate their pets, spay/neuter, etc.? I think a job of a vet should be to offer your medical opinion/treatment within the confines of animal legality and keep your personal feelings to yourself. I personally would be very uncomfortable if I brought my pedigree dog to you for treatment if I knew your opinions were so against tail docking. I might think you would pre-judge me as a client & my dog as a patient and maybe give me some kind of sub-par care. I appreciate you rethinking your stance on people that show their dogs; but had you never met anyone who has shown their dogs before to better understand them? I would think I vet would want to be educated in all aspects of the animal world, especially domestic animals they were treating. A concern of mine against legislation of tail docking/ear cropping is what would be next? I know someone who breeds Corgi's in California that gets frowned upon for breeding a pedigree dog, since the some animal activists are against breeding, and think the only way you should acquire a dog is through a shelter. I am all for animal rights but I think some things are taken to an extreme. |
| I am a bit surprised that someone with a Veterinary practice and the
education you stated, was ignorant of the cost of breeding and showing dogs. I would think you would have clients who show and breed, especially with all people you turn down for docking and cropping pinneas. You would certainly know what you would charge for such procedures. Just a thought... Shellie |
| Zsa Zsa, I believe that Ron didn't ban you for being an animal rights activist, he has always stated (many times) that posts need to be civil. Learning new things and different points of views are great, but offending people while you are doing it isn't.
People obviously have very strong beliefs on this subject. You, Zsa Zsa's Girl have a very strong belief which would be very hard to change, it seems, even given new facts, so just remember that other people who believe in tail docking have a similarly strong beliefs that, even with new knowledge, might be hard to change. |
| I didn't ban anyone, I locked the topic from everyone for a while, because I was getting annoyed and I was going to be away for the evening. |
Quote: The FACT....the only medical way to determine pain in both humans and animals other than them verbally letting you know (ie: crying, howling, whimpers, shaking, panting) is......BLOOD PRESSURE!
You refer to "facts" over 10 times throughout your post but the only hard medical fact that you've offered is increased blood pressure in terms of telling animal is in pain. Are you also implying that animals are on par with humans in terms of tolerating pain? We know that isn't the case. Animals can tolerate much more pain because if they were to become as incapacitated as humans do, they'd be targets for prey in the wild. I'd like to see a human walk with broken hip! You certainly have a right to your opinion but I'm unsure of what you wish to accomplish by blasting into the forum with all these strong beliefs. Have you bothered to read any other part of the forum-- all the stories, experiences and concerns that we share about our dogs? Yet, you're coming in here accusing people of not loving their animals based on a 2 second snip of an appendage in their first days of life? If that's the basis of how you form opinions on things, that certainly closes you off to learning anything new. I'm curious, do you blast these opinions to anyone who comes into your veterinary practice with a dog that has been cropped or, as you see it, aesthetically altered, in any way? Or do you refuse to treat them at the door? I agree with Deb in that I would be greatly concerned, as an owner of such an animal, to be treated by someone as emotionally charged about this issue as you are. Completely aside, could you please consider using paragraphs when you type? It's hard to read as one giant run-on thought. Thanks in advance. |
| People make decisions everyday that are physically and life altering, we get piercing, tattoos, babies get circumcised, women tie their tubs, men get vasectomy’s, need we get into the discussion of plastic surgery.....the majority of people change and alter themselves and/or their children for health reason or yes, vanity....it may hurt but it heals. We do the same to our four legged family members......although some may view it as wrong, it may be deemed okay by others.
With that said, I am neutral on the matter. I do believe it is good to have conviction in your beliefs, however I feel is unnecessary to use force and to use repletion to make others believe what you do. I feel that one should say what they feel needs to be said and move on! You cannot force others to believe as you, only educate and again, move on. Ron, I believe that you acted in the right manner, as some things need to be put to rest! ZsaZsa, I respect your opinion and that you are educated and are convicted however, in the future you may want to consider changing your tone and smooth your verbiage and people would receive what you are trying to say a bit better..... |
| Sorry, but I just HAD to bring this up.
ZsaZsa's girl, Do you not perform spaying and neutering too? That also puts a dog in pain doesn't it. It is a much more serious procedure than cropping and bobbing. A dog is born with reproductive organs. In a female you are removing 99% of their reproductive system...... and a Male you are removing....an two outer appendages. I am sure you are going to say that Yes, you indeed do these procedures....so my question is Why? If it puts the dog in pain. Isn't that animal cruelty by your definition? My second question is. If a dog comes in to your office with a shredded tail because he/she is an enthusiastic wagger. Will you remove the tail? Or let the dog suffer with a constantly reopening wound? |
| One long paragraph is VERY hard to read, your points albeit valid are hard to find. You may not get the point across....
On the docking issue, I am neutral. Having had dogs with and without docked tails, I love them both. The docked breeds, such as boxers have thin whip like tails, the OES do have big thick lush tails...both can be nusience. I agree ear cropping is useless, and there is on going pain with it. Docking, as with spaying and neutering, or dew claws....have become common practise and done in such a way we hope is the least discomfort to our beloved pets. I admit to being vain, and love the docked sheepie look, as well as boxer...etc breeds. Blood pressure...we all have it, it goes up and goes down, but seriously do we die if we cut our finger, or have it amputated. No life goes on, and we all adjust, dogs adjust, as if it is completely normal. There is a reason why dogs are docked at 2 days old, not 2 years old, pain being the main one I am sure. On a side note, there is a reason why male babies are circumsized at a couple days old as well, not as adults. Are you against all that too? It can be deemed unncessary, but it is still a common procedure. My 3 yr old sheepie doesn't know she doesn't have a tail, she is in no pain. Dew claws removed from puppies, are feeling fine minutes after, and are able to crawl around right after. However a hanging dew claw...is a major discomfort and a cause for ongoing pain....which my sheepie has. Personal opinions that become a heated discussion should be kept personal. |
| I just asked a local vet what her opinion on this exact subject is. She has some procedures that she does not do anymore. They are tail docking, ear-cropping and she is considering declining declawing cats, too. She is a caring, gentle vet that always apologises to the animals she is giving shots to. When she did the tails and dew-claws she always had the owners hold the dogs so they would see the amount of discomfort they experienced. She still hates to do dew claws, but does it anyway.
Anyone who thinks that tail-docking does not hurt, or hurts only marginally, is fooling themselves. Perhaps the tail end has few nerves, I woouldn't know, but there is an open wound that needs to close and heal, and that is always painful. And puppies do have nerves and feel pain. Otherwise they would not be able to wimper in discomfort when they are cold. That is why you can easily find them huddled together or on a heating pad. Because they can feel the warmth. I think there is a difference with a nesessary procedure, like spaying a neutering, and removing a tail that constantly gets open sores on it. In the end it will benefit the animal. It is the procedures that have no benefit whatsoever to the dog that I personally do not feel right about. And that is my opinion. But I will not be holding it against anyone who does what they choose to do, and hope they are making an informed decision, not just repeating what someone who told someone who told someone.. People will do what the want, with their animals. Noone can say it is right or wrong for them to do it, but people can provide information in order to assist them in making the right decision. The folks on this forum all love their animals and are passionate about them, and I would suspect are interested in learning more in order to provide the best lives for them and thier pets. Isn't that part of the reason why we are all here? |
| There is actually a lot that I would like to say...but I cannot...Im biting my tongue, hard! |
| Darcy I agre with you 100%. |
| let me pre-empt with this: I am neither for nor against docking, but i do not feel it should be the breed standard.
here's the part that will make a few people mad. 
if we can not dock tails because it is cruel, then we cannot neuter, spay, declaw or perform major (potentially life saving) surgeries, since the animals do not get the right to elect to have the surgery. Now, with that stated, consider the reprecussions. pets will die younger. the streets will be crawling with tons of illegitimate offspring. animal control will be forced to "humanely euthenize" more animals since they cannot simply neuter shelter dogs. fast-foreward 20 years: the animals you try to protect by protesting unnecessary surgeries are now running wild in the streets and 30% of dogs are being euthenized by animal control since there is an overpopulation problem. i for one would prefer they have no tails. |
Ed wrote: lif we can not dock tails because it is cruel, then we cannot neuter, spay, declaw or perform major (potentially life saving) surgeries, since the animals do not get the right to elect to have the surgery. Now, with that stated, consider the reprecussions.
I don't agree that the one necessarily implies the other. For example, Zsa Zsas message focused on the fact that docking serves no medical / health / societal purpose, in direct contrast to neutering, spaying and even declawing. |
Valerie wrote: Ed wrote: lif we can not dock tails because it is cruel, then we cannot neuter, spay, declaw or perform major (potentially life saving) surgeries, since the animals do not get the right to elect to have the surgery. Now, with that stated, consider the reprecussions. I don't agree that the one necessarily implies the other. For example, Zsa Zsas message focused on the fact that docking serves no medical / health / societal purpose, in direct contrast to neutering, spaying and even declawing. true, but my point was that if you can debate that the decision isn't the owner's to make because it is not fair to the animal, than that may carry across into other surgeries.... |
This is in the membership polls section - I don't really see a poll going on here.  But while I'm here visiting, I'd just like to say that I like tails a lot. A LOT. I wish more OES were allowed to keep their tails, just like I wish more boxers could keep their tails AND ears. (and dobies and rotties and bouvs and danes and all the other breeds that get hacked up for cosmetic reasons) I like tails. Yeah. That's all I have to say about that.  ~Katie. |
| Thanks so much for responding even after my attitude the other day. First I would like to appologize for that. I explained to Ron earlier in an email that not having the best "bedside manner" is the reason I went into health care for animals and not humans. Not only that but, I haven't met too many humans that have given me enough of a reason to devote my life to saving them. Ok..now that all that is out of the way. What I have to say about reproductive surgeries is that they in no way should be compared to (sorry if I offend here ) but what I call "vanity" surgeries. Spaying and neutering is so important for several reasons..now the first one wont really apply to quite a few breeders...however it CAN apply even to some horrible breeders. 1st reason is because of the horrible pet over population. Dogs and cats are flooding into rescue shelters and unfortunately are not flooding out...at least not alive. 2nd reason and this applies to everyone. Major health issues. Spaying and neutering cuts back on so many horrible diseases. If female dogs are spayed before their first heat the possibility of mammary tumors are almost non existant. They are much less likely to develope different reproductive cancers as well as ovarian cysts...(which can be deadly even more quickly than cancer) ovarian cysts occur most often in older unspayed dogs. It does not take much time for these cysts to become full with toxic fluid which will eventually rupture within the dog....once that happens that is 99% fatal. The same risks occur with male dogs who have not been neutered. They are much more prone to testicular cancers, penile cancer, and cysts within the testicals that can rupture just as the cysts in ovaries. So....with all that being said...YES, I most certainly do spayings and neutering. Comparing those potential life saving procedures are like comparing a plastic surgeon doing a face lift to a doctor doing a hystorectomy because the patient has a long history of cysts and could easily develop a cancer that could kill her. Now, onto not knowing much about how much "showings" make....I have quite a few clients that show dogs. My questions about my patients consist mainly of a health related nature. What type of food are you feeding...how much do they eat and how many times a day....and if there are any problems they are coming to see me about I address what things could be going on to cause the problem. I have had many clients come in and tell me that their dog or cat have been having anxiety issues when theyy are showing them and ask me my advise on that but I can honestly say that not once in my career has anyone ever came in and told me their income of dog showing...or breeding....and I can also say that not once have I ever been as rude as to ask. I don't know if you make a habbit of asking people how much they make or telling how much you make but I myself don't. I have been happy to tell you that I have taken quite a large paycut to support my belief in the cause of stopping something I feel to be barbaric. As far as veterinarians having an opinion...the whole reason we went into the feild (if we are good doctors) is because we had a VERY strong opinion on the belief that all animals deserve to be happy and healthy. Any vet that doesn't hold an opinion on such topics would be a horrible doctor seeing as debating topics is part of our studies and to move forward with them. As far as disagreeing with a client....no...any veterinarian that belongs to large medical offices such as petmed or any place like that usually can't express their opinions because they are in a larger business that is meant to make alot of money. That was one of the contributing factors of opening my own practice. The beauty of having your own practice is you get to set your own rules. Rules that can include anything from deciding to refuse a client (the only things I refuse are an vanity surgeries, or euthanasia on any animal that is beyond repair physically or suffering...I also do not do declawings...I do however offer a product called "soft paws" and I only offer those to people whom I know will be sure their cat is kept indoors at all times...I even had my hang ups on that though) I do tell the person that I am sorry that they feel the way they do but that I will not be able to offer that procedure to them. Most people leave it at that and say thank you anyway. There are however people that will insist on knowing why...and I have no reservations about telling them. As far as offering any facts...the only one that needs to be offered here is the fact of how I know from medical knowledge that it does cause pain. I can offer you the fact of how bobbing started but another person somewhere in this forum already stated it perfectly. If there are any other facts that you need to know ..medical facts and not that of someone who just thinks they know everything about dogs because they simply reproduce them, then please ask me and I will do my best to answer. There was only one fact that had everything to do with this topic...Don't crop ears or bob tails because it is painful to your dog and it is for no reason other than vanity. As for comparing the "tollerance "of pain in dogs to the tollerance of pain in humans...English is not my first language, but I am pretty sure you are overlooking what the word tollerance means. Just because it APPEARS they can tollerate more pain than a human doesn't mean they aren't FEELING the pain. They can just take it longer without passing out, going into shock, becoming hysterical, or even let it be known. Animals are only different with pain than humans in one aspect....they don't whine as much as we do. That doesn't mean they don't feel it and that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. Just because they aren't crying or whining, or screaming like a human would doesn't mean their blood pressure isn't off the roof with pain. Human's have different levels of tollerance, that doesn't mean the person with more of a tollerance isn't hurting when they have their foot whacked off. Look, I am glad this discussion went a little better than the last. Their are obviously some people that refuse to accept fact and find it easier to sleep at night believing what they want. For those people I am truely sorry for your animals and for you. As for the rest that have some good questions and care about the facts and learning something medical in what is being done ...I would like to appologize. I should not have come in yelling at everyone like that in the beginning. I AM for animal's rights...I always will be and any vet that isn't isn't taking their job seriously and isn't living by their own oaths. I live and breathe taking care of and protecting animals. I feel that anyone who is NOT for the rights of animals but rather just their OWN rights ...(you know who you are) and can spout at me that they can do what they want with their animal because they have the RIGHT to because it's America....people like that have no business having animals. Furthermore , anyone with that attitude on animals is a disgrace to those of you who breed and would like to do right by your dog...people like that smear the good name of all of you who want to do RIGHT by your animal. Once again...I am not "telling" any of you what to do...I am BEGGING...please....love your breed for their personalities and for the natural beauty. That excuse of where does it stop....that excuse is for defeatests. You act as if you can't have ANY good without ALL the bad. Let's get real. PETA has come a long way with trying to get this banned and for good reason. You ask how far will it go ..what's next...are they next going to make it where it is illegal for anyone to eat any type of meat??! For that comment I say use common sense....as much as I love animals I am not going to go off on someone for eating meat. I myself dont, however my sister who suffers from anemia NEEDS meat....you can take alll tthe iron pills you want...it doesn't substitute what the body really needs. For that reason alone...YES ..PETA will try and on that one...PETA will fail. On this topic they are simply asking that you not injure your animal for vanity. THAT should not be too much to ask. ...with that I bid you all good night and I hope those true animal lover (wagging tails floppy ears and all) have a wonderful night. |
| Thank You. |
| A little less harsh in tone, but still pretty harsh. It's hard to want to continue to read your novel (again, no paragraphs to make it easier reading) when you start off saying "Not only that but, I haven't met too many humans that have given me enough of a reason to devote my life to saving them." We must all be idiots.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and nothing one person can say will make everyone believe them "just like that." You seem to believe that you can make everyone change their minds by just your words, and if they don't, again - they're idiots. Still too harsh. Thank you for your research and expertise. Chris |
| Chris, you said what I felt, just didn't know what more to say than what I did.....so, thanks to you! |
ZsaZsa's girl wrote: I would suggest you stop acting like an expert on medical care for dogs and what type of pain they are suffering just because you have simply become good at being the Heidi Fleiss of dogs.
ZsaZsa, I would suggest that people would be more willing to consider your points if you would stop personally attacking other forum members. In my experience this is a very receptive and intelligent group, and a concise and unemotional statement will get more consideration than an attack And I have to admit that the Heidi Fleiss line made me laugh out loud, just from sheer inappropriateness. |
| I'd love to respond but I'm having a hard time recovering from the seizure I had trying to read that manifesto.
Cut and paste, people, or suffer the same epileptic fate that I did. |
| (the only things I refuse are an vanity surgeries, or euthanasia on any animal that is beyond repair physically or suffering....[/quote]
So you are saying you would let a dog that is beyond repair and suffering in pain continue to be in pain and suffering rather than to euthanize them to put them out of their pain? yeah. some compassionate vet............. |
| I guessed (and I hope!) that she meant EXCEPT those "that [are] beyond repair physically or suffering" |
| I don't know Ron. When our Borzoi bloated and torsion'd we were dealing with two vets in Mass/Ct that (long story short) we had to take him elsewhere from where we started with.
I couldn't believe that one vet. She was more into money than she was into helping the animals. I miss that guy.......... he was neat. Ali |
Darcy wrote: There is actually a lot that I would like to say...but I cannot...Im biting my tongue, hard!
I agre with you! This is the same disussion we went thrue in scandinavian some years ago. We have lived with long tails for among 10 y. now, and we have started to like it |
Ron wrote: I guessed (and I hope!) that she meant EXCEPT those "that [are] beyond repair physically or suffering"
Yes, most likely, but there are so many grammatical and spelling errors as well as the lack of paragraphs that it is hard to know if the person is making another mistake or means what he or she says this time?? ZsaZsa, I do find some of your information wildly inaccurate, you mention a language difficulty so maybe that's it. |
| There is no education in these two posts. Only opinions.
If you want to educate, then give me some data. But if it is your opnion, don't disguise it as "educating", and label it as is. As for your opinion, I disagree completely, and happily will go home to my docked sheepdog and bouvier with cropped ears and tail. |
Quote: not having the best "bedside manner" is the reason I went into health care for animals and not humans. Not only that but, I haven't met too many humans that have given me enough of a reason to devote my life to saving them.
I can certainly relate to this comment. People who are heavily involved with canine rescue get to meet the scum of the earth, and see the results daily of what people do to their dogs (or not do, with respect to neglect). I imagine vets get the same thing. They have to treat animals that are not well cared for, and deal with people who refuse to pay for thier treatment when necessary. When we hear the lies people tell about thier animals, and also get the dogs in that are in such sorry shape, it is hard to sympathise with the owners who let them get into such condition. Look at the the dogs on this forum that have been adopted by wonderful folks. Most of the pets here are well-taken care of, and pampered. Any many folks do not see the underground of neglect and cruelty that is full or starving, ill-treated, unhealthy animals. One of my favourite sayings that many rescue people use is "the more I meet people the more I like my dog"...Depending on who you deal with on a day-to-day bases the percentage of good, caring people versus the scum can vary. That is why many people burn out form rescue work, They see it all the time, day in and day out. If that is all you see all the time, what kind of perception of human being does one get? Same with vets. It gives kind of a biased view of folks. That is why I hand out here...kind of like a release, somewhere warm and fuzzy, away fromt eh realitiy. Ok I got off topic, but wanted to state that I relate totally to this comment about where to put one's efforts... And I apologise if I offend anyone, but that is how I feel. |
| Ok. Obviously a few of you didn't read my last post at all. I have read through it and have found nothing harsh at all in it. That Heidi Fliess comment was made in the post before this last one in which I appologized.
It is also obvious that very few of you read the part where I appologized for my grammatical errors in any of these posts as English is not my first language. I am sorry but I have not studied the English language near as long as probably all of you. I may not great at it but I think I am probably alot better than alot of people still learning a new language. I have my husband helping me out on this one somewhat, so hopefully it will be a little more readable. I suppose I am not the only unforgiving person with a lack of a "bedside" manner in here. Which is perfectly ok, it makes me feel a little less left out. I would say the difference here is I am at least trying even though I disagree with most of your opinions on this topic. I have appologized and I will even extend that appology once more. It is up to you if you want to accept it or not. I had made the quote earlier that "Most human's have not given me much a reason to devote my life to saving them." This is no way means that I think you to be idiots. I just haven't come across alot of nice people (me included alot of times). Animals never let me down. They never degrade me or make me feel less than because of anything. (please keep in mind I DID say that I WAS including myself in those not so nice people). Animals dont cause the kind of chaos in the world the way I feel humans have. Just because I don't feel MOST humans arent worth devoting my life to saving doesn't mean I wouldn't try to save one if the situation occured. I am just saying I haven't devoted my life to the medical practice of humans for my own personal reasons. That has no reflection on your intelligence. The person that made the comment that i have offered no facts and only opinions. Apparently you are not so good at English either, no? I gave ample medical FACTS on why spaying and neutering are so important. I also gave medical FACTS on what veterinarians look for when determining pain....which is an unusual increase in blood pressure. Nothing I have written about spaying and neutering and very high risks that can occur without it are OPINION. NOTHING I have said about veterinarians determining pain through increase of blood pressure is OPINION...that is FACT. The ONLY thing I will not appologize for is for believing that all animals should have every right that humans have regarding being hurt. I would be a hypocrit and a fraud if I appologized for that. I would also be a liar. For everything else..the harshness...I have now appologized a total of 3 times. I will not extend another one. As for the euthanizing animals that are suffering. Had you read about me being new to this language that may have cleared that right up. Obviously you may have missed it since it is hard for you guys to read what I wrote, or maybe you just feel that anyone who simply can't speak YOUR language as well as YOU can are just idiots? I can assure you that isn't the case. Anyhow, I will do euthanasia on an animal only in the case of it being physically beyond repair or suffering. I do not euthanize animals that are perfectly healthy. Should someone come to me wanting that service I explain to them that I can't do that on moral grounds, however I would be happy to take the animal and care for it myself at my home. |
Thank you for clearing up a few things 
I don't think anyone would ask you to apologize for your beliefs.... we simply did not like the feel of someone cramming their own beliefs down our throats so to speak. Thank you so much for making the effort to make your post more readable... and if English is not your first language then I think you are doing very well with it. This forum has been quite successful in that our members are usually welcoming of new ideas and opinions, and though not all of us agree on all things, we all love our dogs. |
Quote: The person that made the comment that i have offered no facts and only opinions. Apparently you are not so good at English either, no? I gave ample medical FACTS on why spaying and neutering are so important. NOTHING I have said about veterinarians determining pain through increase of blood pressure is OPINION...that is FACT.
Since the original topic was cropping and docking, I believe he was referring to that part of the discussion. You have offered elevated blood pressure as a means to determining pain several times but that is the only hard fact that you've given in relation to that subject. Inserting the word "fact" within an opinion does not make it a fact-- and that's a fact.  |
Actually, that was an assertion. I know of no proof that says that the insertion of an assertion that something is a fact cannot make something a fact. But I could be wrong.  |
| I think we all get that she doesn't agree with docking or cropping. I haven't had anyone try to shove something down my throat as hard as this since my Mom wanted me to eat brussel sprouts.
I am in pain from my elevated blood pressure after reading this post again. |
| I these posts are giving me a rise in blood pressure, does that mean
I am in pain???? 
Shellie |
I just wondered, are you allowed to show the sheepdog whit a tail in the states?? We aren’t allowed to show them if they are docked  |
| Shellie, an increase in blood pressure of course does not always indicate pain. It could just indicate that you are overweight, or just simply have a problem with high blood pressure, or stress.
For those of you who do not know anything about the medical field, a significant increase in blood pressure IS in FACT something that occurs when an animal or a human is in pain. If people would like to see it as opinion simply because they do not know of what they are speaking then that is fine, but it has been proven as FACT in the medical community that an increase in blood pressure happens when one is in pain (including animals). It is also a proven fact that the vast majority of dogs getting their ears cropped as well as tails docked have an abnormal increase in blood pressure when they should be experiencing a drop in it because of medications given. If you would like another fact then here is one....none of you see or hear what your dog goes through immediately after awaking from surgery. Every dog I have docked or cropped has woken with whimpering and crying. As for ear cropping, I believe it IS a very painful surgery for your dog and many times they are sent home with additional pain medication. I'm sorry for trying to cram anything down anyone's throat. I just have a very strong belief in this topic. Someone had made the comment that I act like my words will change someone just like that. Well, I certainly hope it will change someones opinions on it who might not have been as informed before. That is what separates me from the activists that do things like throwing paint on people, bombing buildings and doing other extreme things that I do not approve of. Had you rather me try and change someones mind THAT way? I certainly hope not. Words are all any of us should have to try and change the mind of someone that we disagree with. |
ZsaZsa's girl wrote: I'm sorry for trying to cram anything down anyone's throat. I just have a very strong belief in this topic.
Words are all any of us should have to try and change the mind of someone that we disagree with. We all have STRONG beliefs/opinions/ideas that we agree with and we don't, that is every persons right in a democracy We all agree & disagree on many aspects and ideas in life, that's what makes us individuals!! I know you are very strong on the subject of bobbing and cropping as you have certainly expressed that time and time again. That is your right to express your opinion on that too. Whether people agree with your opinions or not, is up to each individual to make there own assessment of what you have posted and wether they agree with that or not is their rights. You can't change the world on just your own opinions and try and get the whole world to agree with it. If you did then WOW wouldn't the world be such a wonderful place, no poverty, no wars, no racial discrimination etc etc. I for one still like my OES docked and I hope you are not going to come back at me with strong and not so pleasant words as you won't change my opinion on that. I too also have very strong beliefs on that subject. I also read and respected your opinions even though the first lot of posts were not written in a pleasant manner, but you do have the right to express your thoughts & so do I, in a polite and civil way, even when some people maynot agree with your opinions or facts! If you changed a few members opinons/ideas on this forum, well good for you & those that you didn't, you should respect their decisions too. We are all individuals and we all see things in a different light, on many different things in life, that's what makes the world go around. |
| I have no intention of coming back at you with something harsh. Like I have said. Of course I would love to change as many minds on this as possible. Everyone knows you can't change the whole world. What I can do though is try my best to change as many as possible....through words. The trouble though is that I approached it with anger and because of that I lashed out. I shouldn't have done that especially if wanting to win someone over and neither should anyone else.
I think we all know that approaching a topic of such controversy is best done delicately and I failed to do that. I also know that everyone has done that before as well, when passionate about something. If you say you haven't then you're lying. We have all lost our cool and said harsh things, that's just part of being human. I won't give up on trying to change some minds on this. If I did I would be a failure and would be giving up on something that I care about. Should anyone see that as trying to cram something down people's throats then I suppose you have never stood up for something you believe in and if you have ever firmly held your ground on something then that statement was just hypocritical. (sorry to offend on that if I have but that is just truth). You also need to keep in mind that if you have the right to make a very long page (which I have seen in here other than me) on why animal rights activists are endangering your breeds and have the right to spout off your angers at what they do then animal right's activists have just as much of a right to defend themselves and spout off why they think that you are the ones endangering them. Alot of you have acted like I have been the only one to be harsh and offend in here. The truth is that saying the things alot of you have said in this forum about animal rights activists is JUST as offensive as me spouting off to you that you must not love your dogs. It seems that it has escaped alot of your minds that YOU yourselves have crammed YOUR opinions (and offensively I might add) about animal rights activists. I do feel that there has been alot of "it's ok for me to do but if I don't like what you have to say it isn't ok for you" going on here. Please remember that my original posts were in response to another post that I read about activists and that they will one day cause the extinction of breeds. I was not the one who brought this whole topic up in the first place. You all voiced your opinions and strongly on it and offended ME in doing so and were HARSH. When you do that don't be surprised when someone lashes back out at you....just as you all did with me |
| Ok, I think we've discussed this subject enough to last a week or two. |
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