Ductless split system heat pumps - anyone have experience?
A normal heat pump system has 3 parts: The heatpump, the air handler and the ductwork. The heat pump heats a refrigerant, which travels into the air handler which is like a radiator. The air handler blows air across the radiator and into duct work, that travels out to the individual rooms and exits through registers. A whole lot of the heat loss or inefficiency of the entire system is lost in the duct-work. Assuming that it's not leaking (which is a big assumption) the ducts travel through spaces (basement, attic, walls) that aren't heated or cooled, and have to be insulated. Even so, the air that travels through them lose or gain a ton of heat on the way to the target room. I'm looking at getting a ductless mini split heating and cooling system for my house. These are heat pump systems that have no ductwork. You mount the air handler where you want it, and the heat pump unit connects directly to it. So inside, there's a unit that hangs on the wall about the size of a normal window valance, and blows the heated or cooled air into the room. SEER stands for Seasonal Energy Efficiency Rating and is a measure of a unit's overall cost of producing heat or cold. The higher the better. Old AC units might produce an 8 or even a 10 SEER. Stating in January 2006, new installations will require a minimum of 13 SEER. I've seen these mini ductless systems online with a SEER as high as 16! That's wonderful. I have seen Dakin ( Daikin ) systems for a 22,000 BTU, with 2 zones (2 air handlers for 2 rooms) for $3200, that doesn't sound too bad. I wonder what will be required to install these things. Electric outside (220 probably), electric near the air handler (110 probably, maybe 220) and then some sort of way to remove condensation from the unit. Will it need a full plumbing hookup into my septic system? Will I be able to dump the water outside somewhere? Will that dumped water freeze in the winter? So I've seen Dakin, and Mitsubishi and LG heat pumps and they all look pretty good to me. Anybody have any experience with this type of system? |
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| My hubby was/is (he got promoted but still does that work sometimes) an h/vac technician. I won't talk to him again until tomorrow, but I'll ask him if he knows anything about that type of system. |
| Thanks! It's actually "Daikin"
I misspelled it as "Dakin". |
No problem. I just hope he still remembers his job since he hasn't been there for 6 months, lol Hopefully, he kept some of the last 10 years of work stored away.  |
| We have a heat pump/AC unit. Our house is heated by the heat pump until it drops a few degrees below freezing. Then the heat pump cannot keep up so the oil furnace kicks in. The same unit that heats the house in the winter time cools the house in the summer.
Does that count? |
Bosley's mom wrote: Does that count? Sort of. It's the same type of system, but probably without the central aspect... that is there are no ducts and registers for blowing the air around. I'll see if I can find a picture or two. |
| I guess it kinda looks like this:
http://global.daikin.com/global/our_pro ... 4room.html It uses R410A refrigerant. I was looking at a very inexpensive installation rather than going with 9 zones, I was looking just at a single, 2 zone unit, and will condition two main rooms to save energy money. The other rooms can stay on baseboard heat (and window A/C if needed). Then again, maybe I should just look into a whole house traditional heat pump / air handler / duct system with those small flexible power ducts... but I don't have a lot of money to spend. |
| Ron,
We have a central cooling/heating system at home. The water condensation has been a problem only in the summer for us, since it gets evaporated in the winter as it heats. For what is seems, it's just pure water with no contamination, so it's safe to dump it, we have a small piece of plastic plumbing that leads to a small drainage that goest to the common collector. I guess that if you have condensation in the winter, it's likely that it will freeze if it's not circulating, so it's better to dump it on a place where it won't be a hazard as it freezes. |
| Jason works 5 am to 7 pm down there, so it'll be later tonight before I get back to you. |
| HEHEHEHE, looks like we have all kinds of experience here!! Doug is foreman of HV/ACR at Cornell University, I'll run this by him tonight. Seems like you oughta get some information from all these experts!!! |
Hey Ron... HEEEEEEEEEEEERe's DOUG 
Mitsubishi has come out with a new line of ductless heat pumps that use varible speed drive technology which is very efficient. (MSZ Model) Please note that the amount of heat you will get indoors is relative to the amount of heat the unit can 'absorb' from the outdoors. That's why they usually don't work very well in the Northeast. Sanyo, Carrier also make simlilar units. We've had a lot of success with the Mitsubishi's and have probably installed 50-100 where I work. |
Thank you, Doug. Can you slip one or two my way? 
Any idea what their rated SEER is? I can't find that model prefix, the ones I find are only 10's.  |
| A 14k BTU is about 10.7. (http://www.mehvac.com/Products/itemDeta ... ductID=984)
The website is MrSlim.com When everybody is forced to use R410 refrigerant instead of R22, the SEER numbers will jump up. I think 1/06 |
| Yeah, the system I'm looking at has a SEER of 16. That's a HUGE difference!
My electric bill is projected to be in the $3500 range this year.  |
Ron wrote: My electric bill is projected to be in the $3500 range this year.
Ron, I think it's time for you to look into alternative power like solar, especially since you are all electric. We recently constructed an addition for our house specifically with solar in mind. NJ offers a 70% rebate as part of their "Clean Energy Program". I'm sure other states have similiar programs. Our system is warrantied for 20-25 years and the expense of the installation will be paid off in about 5 years. Our system has only been operating for 2 weeks now and our electric bill is already cut in half and we're in the winter months with the least amount of sunshine. The bonus factor is is that whatever electric we generate and don't use, the electric company has to buy it back from us, or we can sell in the open market as a "green chip". Here are some photos so you can see what our installation entailed. (please keep in mind we are still in lovely construction phase) 
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Ron wrote: My electric bill is projected to be in the $3500 range this year. EEEEEEEEEEEEEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe you need to buy a bunch a sheepies to keep you warm!!!!!!!!!! |
VerveUp wrote: Ron, I think it's time for you to look into alternative power like solar, especially since you are all electric. Wow! Totally cool!
I DO have a perfectly south-facing unobstructed garage roof, about 32ft long and 12 or 15 ft in height..... <bracing> Ok, how much does an installation like that cost (for the electric portion)? Can I assume that's a new passive solar heated addition as well? So If I were to get a 5 or 6 year loan to pay for the construction, theoretically it could pay of the loan with the savings? |
Jason went right to bed last night since he has to drive 6 hours plus out-process at two places today, but since he's coming home sometime today, I'll ask him then.  |
Ron wrote: have a perfectly south-facing unobstructed garage roof, about 32ft long and 12 or 15 ft in height.....
<bracing> Ok, how much does an installation like that cost (for the electric portion)? Can I assume that's a new passive solar heated addition as well? So If I were to get a 5 or 6 year loan to pay for the construction, theoretically it could pay of the loan with the savings? It sounds like you have a perfect area to put some panels as long as you don't have trees around. Our roof size is 25 x 30ft and pretty much faces due south. The panels are about 3 x 5 ft in size and you can see we covered every inch possible. Our out of pocket expense was $18,000. So essentially our system would have cost $54,000 if it wasn't for the NJ's generous rebate. I'm not sure what MA has for clean energy programs but here is a link to NJ's so you can get some info http://www.njcleanenergy.com/. Your electric company might also be able to steer you in the right direction as well. We interviewed a few different independent solar contractors and went with company called Akeena Solar which uses BP solar panels. They pretty much did all the leg work for us from working with our architect to filling out the rebate forms for us. I understand that Home Depot just recently started selling solar systems as well. As for heat, not passive solar heated enough unfortunately, right now we have no heat in the new space, or insulation or drywall for that matter (It's Frank's refridgerator hang out right now). We plan on putting radiant floor heat hopefully within the next year. We're kind of out of money right now. The solar obviously was a big expense but we thought it was a good thing to do especially since we use a lot of electric with all of our computer equipment/printers. I want to add too, that we did put a 220 line into the house, although I don't think that is necessary to get an actual solar system. I hope this answers some of your questions. My husband actually did all of the research himself so if you have other technical questions I will have to defer to him. |
| Impressive!!! We are looking to add another addition in the spring..... I wonder if solar heat is a possibility!! |
| With the prices of gas the way they are, and not likely to ever get any better, electric and solar options are sounding better every day.
We currently pay about 2500 a year for electricity, and another 2500 for gas heat (per year). Natural gas used to be so much cheaper, everyone wanted to switch everything to it, but now, it has risen something like 40% in the last year alone. Awful. |
| Maybe you should just get a wood stove. I know of a tree that would supply a lot of firewood! |
| In some ways the gas crisis is good because it is forcing people to look into alternative energy sources. The bad thing is that the alternative energy sources are still out of reach price-wise for a lot of consumers. We were very fortunate that NJ offered such a great rebate or we would not have been able to afford it. Right now California, New Jersey, New York (Yay! Tasker's Mom) & Connecticut are still offering 70% rebates until they run out of funding. It's too bad more states are not jumping on the bandwagon and I don't know of incentives in Canada. Another great energy source are the wind turbines which I imagine is cheaper than solar voltaics but I'm not sure. These types of energy are not only great for the pocketbook but also for the environment. |
| Unless you're a bird flying by, or a neighbor who has to look at the huge turbine, or a person who likes to look at natural landscapes....
Everything has it's downsides. |
| I wish we could install wind or solar power at home, we have prime conditions for both here in Juarez, it's a shame that the cost for alternate sources is out of reach for us. |
| Ron,
My hubby (Heating A/C and Plumber for the past 17 years) says the Mitsubishi is the best. Billy says it 500 sq ft per ton of heating an cooling btus. If you have no insulation or high ceiling or single pane windows you will need to upsize the system by 1 ton to get the proper efficency. The 16 SEER is the highest available at this time and is the most effecient as far as savings on your bills. My parents just put a Amana system in their sun room. They are very happy with it. They have duct work for A/C and heating but because of the room being all windows... It loses or gains quit a bit of heat depending on the outside weather and that one vent into the room does absolutely nothing. Dad is happy, now he can sit outside and play on the computer and not freeze his butt off anymore...lol |
| Do your homework on service and parts availability. We have a mini split LG system and the service tech has been unable to get parts from the manufacturer, seems there has been a high demand for this part. Our unit wouldn't defrost and needed two sensors. The service tech was here 11/30/10, called us a few days later and said the parts are on back order Today, 1/3/11 another update was 2/2/11 at the earliest. This system is only 14 months old and still under warrenty. In the mean time we are having to use our ceiling heat, and that spells high electric bills. Would I purchase another LG product, absolutely NOT. Fact is the 3 major heating and cooling business in this area will not carry this line because of issues such as this, so it's not just us complaining. This was a $6300.00 investment that seems to be a lemon. |
| Wow, what a predicament! I might consider replacing the unit with another brand right away. If the installing company won't work with you on the cost (ie really cheap!) I'd xonsider doing it anyway and then go to small claims for relief. The product won't do its intended function and can't be repaired in anybody's opinion of a reasonable time frame. If it were a car, at least you could get a rental! Good luck. |
| I need to throw a wrench at this talk of efficiencies of the heat sources. The new mini splits are good. So are the PV's and regular high SEER heat pumps. No mention of conservation? $3500 for heat? A house that hemorages heat is a house that hemorages heat. Kind of like calling an ambulance is proper planning before stepping in front of oncoming traffic. just stay on the curb. Fix your house! By far your smartest dollar spent is to insulate and air seal, then your input source is far less important. A lower per square foot BTU load also opens up options. Have the local utility a free energy analysis by a BPI Certified Analyst. (Be wary if they also are salesmen for a local insulation company and want you to sign on the spot. Utilities sometimes subcontract this work) Get a blower door test done. Insulate the attic to R-50. Have a carpenter remove the window casings and foam the gaps. Change windows if needed. Blow the walls with Cellulose if possible. Depending upon what you start with, these could cut the heat load of your house in half! Subsidies always skew the economics, but solar hot water is a much better investment than PV's. Depending upon local incentives, paybacks could be in the range of 4 to 6 years on a 25 yr system, vs. 15 to 30 years on a 25 yr PV system. The info is out there. Unfortunately it can be vast and the terms and physics confusing till you learn the speak. Always tighten it up before you buy any new equipment. Good luck. Spencer Field Master Builder BPI BA |
| Thanks for the info! Ya, $3,500 is a lot of money, but it's a big house and it's a baseboard resistance heating and electricity is very expensive here in the northeast. We've made some improvements, but the house is already 2x6 construction and fairly well insulated. We only use about 25,000 KWh per year which is the btu equivalent of 600 gallons of oil. ( Give or take. 750 if the furnace is only 80% efficient ) That includes heat as well as hot water, clothes dryer and all regular electric. |
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