I think the whole fight was over a crumb found in Jenny's spot. Jenny had a tooth mark in her lip that was slightly bleeding. Anyway, Jules is normally very loving. Some times she even kisses Jenny. But tonight she showed a very ugly side.
|My shelties have had a couple of ugly scraps, too. Always over extra special food. I wouldn't worry about it if it was a one-off thing. Seeing as nobody got hurt it really was all noise. If they want to do damage, they do, but siblings rarely really fight to hurt. And as someone mentioned earlier, (Marianne, maybe?) females get into tussles way more often then males. My females scrap a few times a year, and my male sheltie never did.|
|I think you did the correct thing for a time out; however probably after 5 minutes she probably had no idea why she was out there and was getting used to her new environment.|
|I have heard that having two female dogs that this sometimes happens. It is amazing how Jules can go from b_ _ _ _ to sweetness in a couple of minutes|
|Sounds scary... my girls haven't run into that, thank goodness...
I think you handled it correctly too... though like George said, they really don't have a long term memory for things like associating action/reaction.
|)I have always wondered if the long-term memory might become better as they mature. She seems to continually get smarter as she gets older. She will be 2 in January. Anyway, I kinda joked with my husband tonight that it was his fault. He and our 2 sons like to rough house with her quite a bit. He said his former 2 sheepies were also food aggressive.|
Sorry that happened and it is scary to watch a battle between the dogs in the household. Time outs are good and letting them know it's not acceptable is good too - this is when the humans should step in and take charge (if injury occurs). I'd say 5 mins is a good length of time for a time out. Most dogs don't fight unless there is something worth fighting for...sounds like delicious turkey left over was something Jules felt was worth fighting for.
How old is Jules and how old is Jenny? It could be that Jules is maturing and is wanting to step into the leadership role but then again it could be that delicious Turkey leftover. Hard to say without knowing more or viewing their body stance first hand. Is Jenny eating faster than in the past? If so, it could be that she is hurrying to finish before Jules. The one whom has the leadership in the house usally is able to walk over to the others food dish and the more suborinate one will relenquish it. If they refuse there is usually a battle.
I think it was sixgirls that spoke previously regarding that males have a much more set dominance/submissive members..while with females it may be fleeting or change continuously. I'd ask for her advice as she's much more experienced with muli-girl households. Shaggy was my only girl sheepie and now I experience a lot of male testostorone in my household with my three males (although all are neutered) I have to feed them seperately or else I would see the less subordinate ones gulping their food down before Merlin finishes as he as leader would walk over to their food dish and they would relenquish it to him immediately as he has established he is the boss amongst them. They never challenge him. If they did , there would be a fight .
It's wise not to pull dogs away when they are fighting as you are the one apt to get hurt or bitten accidently. It's horrible to watch..awful to hear but in dog culture and most animals a fight to the death...very RARE! With two dogs in the household that start having difficulties with one another and a fight occurs..in dog language the belly up sign is the way they say I give up! The other dog recognizes this universal dog language and knows that he/she has established dominance or put the other one in their place. That may be it, with no further battles ensuing..unless the subordinate one once again refuses to be submissive to the other one..then another fight may occur.
Rarely a dog that is not well socialized and breaks the rules for his own dog culture will continue to fight another dog when he/she has rolled on their back in the "I give up sign". This was once the case of a dog that attacked Merlin at the dog park when he was a pup still. That dog showed he was aggressive as he broke the "doggie code of law". I knew immediately he was not a dominant dog but an aggressive one. There is a difference. One way to tell was, Merlin immediately rolled on his back in the submissive position when this dog attacked him, but the dog continued to go after him and secondly..Merlin was a pup. In dogs "code of conduct" it is against their code to attack a puppy..they may discipline them but not attack ..again there is a difference. This dog broke two rules and I knew he was out to kill..I did what any good mom would do and threw myself on top of my baby and as aggressively as possible told the other dog , NOOOO grrrrr. He did back off as I could then tell he was only dog aggressive but not people aggressive. (it helps to know what signs to look for.) I then picked up bleeding Merlin and raced him to the vet while the other owner dissapeared. This dog was a wolf hybrid and went for Merlin's throat and I once posted that it's why sheepies were once chosen to drove sheep, as wolves were unable to get a good throat bite due to all the hair. So sheepies have a defence against wolves! Merlin's nose however suffered a bad cut and his hip was injured.
This is not the case at all with your two..as they know each other and have a relationship and you know them. Just watch for signs through their body language as to possible changes going on between them. Above all don't panic as I mentioned above ..they may simply have viewed delicious turkey as something to fight over.
Dogs will no longer view a pup...as a pup around the age of 9 months. This is really dependent on the breed of dog as some mature faster than others. Our large breed sheepies tend to mature slower than most. At 9 months dogs are viewed as emerging adults and some dogs will view them as a challenge to their spot in the heirachy and try to put these dogs in their place by making sure they stay below them. Pups are the lowest in the heirachy (This is usually seen in places where dogs see one another often such as the case of a offleash dog park.) People should never interfere if the other dogs dicipline their little boy/girl as the other dogs are teaching them socially acceptable doggie behavior. The little ones will cry their little hearts out but it's only because their feelings were hurt cause the bigger dog told them off for chewing on their ears or something.
It's a good idea to watch your dogs carefully and look for signs in their body language. The tail is usually the best indicator. Tail up and they are very dominant or challenging..tail down they are being submissive..wagging they just want to be pals. Saying that our boys/girls don't usually have tails but it's still good to know as we can view the other dogs meeting our sheepies for the first time to get an indication of the signals they are sending. Lowered back , crouching is also a sign of being submissive and of being fearful (careful these dogs are afraid) Hackles raised ..mouth turned into slight snarl..they are ready for a fight. If two dogs approach each other with tails up..and neither is willing to lower his/hers..a fight is probably going to occur. Once one has lowered his tail..you can breath easier as means one is saying..okay you can be the boss.
Humping is also not socially acceptable and although most humans laugh at this , it's not always a sexual but of one dog showing the other one that he/she is the dominant one. The one that is being humped might take acception to this and start to fight. It's a good idea to just pull the dog off immediately as this may be the anecedent for a fight to occur.
Sorry kinda went off topic a bit regarding your two but just wanted to give people some insight into dog behavior and body language. (I used to do the education pet talks for the Humane Society on dog behavior with Sahggy, my previous OES). I was also the steward of the offleash dog park so had have ample opportunities to study dogs and dog body language.
My advice is to watch your two during the next few days at meal times and see if you can pick up any signs that may not have been obvious to you beforehand. The body stance..one almost swallowing their food whole..that sort of thing might give you an indication if something is going on in their dog culture.
Also ask other members with multi-girl families for their advice as I've said Shaggy was my only girl dog out of the 7 I've had the pleasure to know. Usually there is more tussles between the same sex dogs than dogs of opposite sex.
Best Wishes to you
Marianne and the boys
Hoped I helped some and keep us posted.
Marianne and the boys
|Marianne has spelt it all out in her post and there is a lot to learn from that.
I have always had girls and till this year had three together, always fed them seperately and always the oldest first. Made sure that when everyone was finished always took up the bowls straight away, usually the old girl in the kitchen, the next seperately in the laundry and the youngest in the puppy pen. Made sure to keep the peace that the oldest one was first out the door and kept her as matriach of the other two.
Now kelsey has taken over this roll. Girls can be b------ and get jealous easily, I always feel I need an extra set of arms when pats are involved. Your jules might be looking to stamp her dominence as leader of the pack now she is getting older, the other thing is if not spayed they can get extra cranky coming into season, I always watch this time in their cycle as they have hormones from hell and can be quite niggly at that time, so just be careful and watch body language as two girls going at it is a lot more aggressive then 2 dogs. Establish a pecking order with the two girls and stick to it, make sure the one that is the boss is the first to eat, the first out the door etc etc that way the one that isn't will learn her place.
Hope this helps
|Thanks Marianne and Lisaoes! Great advice. We had Jenny first and she is older (6) but Jules (1 3/4) is definately alpha. We still put Jenny's food down first but she gulps it so fast. She is afraid when Jule's is finished she will get to it. I think last night Jenny did not want to back down for the crumb. Anyway, I am going to start picking up the bowls when they are finished. It is definately true...this pecking order.|
|Also Jules is not a puppy anymore, nor an adult either, I call this the rotten teenager stage. When she was a puppy, jenny probably forgave jules on a few things, but now jules is older she will probably challenge jenny and jenny will probably not back down. All part of the pecking order. They will work out who is head girl in the house and don't be afraid to dicipline jules if jenny wants to establish & keep her control as the head girl of the house, let her, but don't let it get to the stage that they go at each other. Aaah the joys of teenagers, Iv'e just got out of that stage with 2 legged upright boys LOL Another thing is Jules is not the Alpha YOU ARE! and both girls have to respect that|
|My Sophie (1 yr./F) and Layla (6 yr./F) fight on a pretty regular basis these days. Can be anything from Layla barking at a bike and Sophie getting all wound up and jumping on Layla's head and Layla responding none too kindly to just fighting because the pup decides to bark and bark and bark at Layla just for the fun of it till Layla goes after her. Its sometimes scary, but they never seem to really hurt each other... just a lot of noise and fuss (and knocked over lamps, occasionally).
ANYWAY, what prompted me to write here was this: I used to walk my pups using a single leash with a two clip attachment at the end of it. In other words, one leash for two dogs. It was working out well till the aforementioned bike-barking incident. Layla was barking at a bicycle and Sophie decided to jump on Laylas head and a brawl broke out. Since they were BOTH ATTACHED TO EACH OTHER, it was sort of like Siamese twins fighting. There was no way to separate them. I had to reach into the brawl and unclip the smaller dog and ended up getting badly bit. Never again will I use that type of leash... two dogs = two leashes.
|We do the same thing... pick up the bowls as soon as they finish. Our 3 big sheepies and Border Collie-mix all eat in the kitchen together. Our alpha and blind sheepie eat in separate rooms. We teach them to leave each other's bowls alone until they're finished. Probably would be best to teach them to leave them alone completely.
I know how scary a dog fight is because of a previous OES-mix we had. We've had a few scrapes between our alpha (Schipperke-mix) and the newest member that doesn't listen to "the growl" so we try to take steps to prevent the challenges from even happening. These are powerful animals that could do a lot of damage if they chose to but I'm always amazed the "damage" in our pack is insignificant.
It seems that extra special treats can cause a problem with our alpha so she gets a brief "timeout" after she gets one to calm down... then all is well.
You can help them to avoid the confrontation in the first place by teach Jules to leave Jenny's bowl alone (also to stay away from her while she's eating) and pick up the bowls as soon as they're empty. You being the ultimate-alpha, you get to set the rules.
Panda is definitely a slooooow learner. What do you do when a 1 year old sheepie stands there staring at the growling alpha instead of at least turning away?? Anyone have any ideas? We keep telling Panda to "leave-it" or push her in the other direction... I think she's slowly catching on but GEEZ!
|6Girls...Good advice. As far as your 1 year old just standing there being growled at.....I believe it. Jules (sheepdog 1 3/4) is so brave. She is not scared of a whole lot right now. Now when she was a small puppy she was afraid of the dark outside at night. Now she thinks she is queen bee who is not afraid of much. Maybe it is the bratty teenager stage. You know how teens think they can't get hurt. Anyway, I would just keep at it. We are going to work on Jules not coming over to Jenny's eating area after she is done. She really only comes over when she thinks Jenny is completely done. She won't come over while Jenny is still eating. Thank goodness.|
|Jules sounds like Panda... there isn't much she's afraid of either. She acts like she's never heard a growl before and is fascinated by it.|
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