One step forward two steps back
Amy ended up at the vet where she was prescribed a topical spray for the scrapes and hotspots, Novox for the pain, and a sedative to keep her calm while she healed. She's been stoned all week. Amy was already leery of men, especially tall, dark-haired men. It was a problem for my husband to begin with, and Amy was afraid of him when I brought her home. She seemed to be getting better around him. Occasionally, if he surprised her in some way, she'd wet herself. At the 6 weeks mark in obedience training, Amy no longer wet herself when a strange man came near. Her overall behavior had improved with obedience training, but she was still nervous and would whine and stress drool throughout training class. But her 7th week in class was a total backtrack to week 1. It was like the 6 weeks prior were pointless. (She missed her final week because she was sedated and we felt it better she stay home.) I talked to the trainer about Amy and told her about the grooming issue. The whole experience has really turned Amy and she's relapsed in nearly every area of behavior. I've been very worried, Dan has expressed his concern with keeping an unstable dog with three kids. The vet expressed his concern over Amy's aggression and her being in a home with a young boy who has the common sense of... well, a 6 year old boy, and with the other dog and cat. The trainer also expressed the same concerns. Amy's on very serious probation at this point. She needs to recover behaviorally to where she was before. The trainer did mention that she thought Amy would benefit from Prozac. I see that at least one or two dogs here have been on Prozac. Is it a lifetime treatment? The trainer suggested that with medication and continued training that Amy might be able to live a normal life. Right now, I really want her to live a normal life. I also want our family to live a normal life. Right now, we can't travel with the dogs because of Amy's problems, and we can't kennel her without it causing a huge problem in behavior. Is there anything else I should consider for her? She has a follow-up vet visit today, and I'll ask about the Prozac. The trainer asked that I call and set up a home visit after the vet appointment, so that she can work with my 6 year old and both dogs at home, as well as see if there is anything we need to change. Any insights? Anything else we should consider? |
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| I am so angry with your groomer right now. I can't believe he would treat your dog like that. Poor Amy, such a rough life and not her fault. I hope things work out for you and Amy. |
| I am too. Amy has a lot of potential to be a great dog. I think what upsets me most is that I interviewed that groomer and she assured me that she had a lot of experience with sheepdogs and with dogs with anxiety and fear. I'm ok with someone admitting that they can't handle a dog like that. I would have a lot more respect if she had called at any point and said that she couldn't finish the job because of Amy's issues. But to use that kind of force makes me mad. It doesn't matter if you have 42 years of experience if it means you break a fragile dog. |
| I would seriously demand a refund causing such a regress in behavior and giving poor amy razor burn in her privates. The groomer should have known better on all levels. I'm really sorry this happened. She was doing so well. I have no advice but wish you the best of luck. |
| I did ask for, and receive, a refund. I do believe that the groomer felt bad about the whole ordeal at least on some level. I don't know that she realized just how much damage she caused by her actions, but at least she was decent enough to apologize and give me a refund. Today has been the first day that I've been able to brush Amy since this happened. She won't really let me get to her inner legs or tail to even gently brush which puts me back, not at square one, but not where we were before I took her in. She piddled when she saw the brush, comb and detangler spray come out, but we got through it--pretty much with a kid giving her a treat every time I got to a sensitive spot or started a new line. She wasn't as happy as she normally is when she's done and she gets a big bow in her hair.  |
| I feel so bad for all of you but especially Amy. I hope things work out well as would hate to see her traumatized some more. |
| Poor Amy. I have no advise as I have no experience in this field. I just feel bad for Amy. I hope all works out. |
| I have had an experience with my beardie Cosmo. He was my DWI dog...(Dog With Issues). We 'rescued' him from a life of abuse at 6 months old. I consulted a behaviourist and was told his issues were hard-wired into him..from puppyhood and he suggested meds. For about 3 years he was on Prozac to 'take the edge off' of his insecurities. I can tell you it did help. He seemed less anxious which allowed him to have positive experiences, and, therefore, made him trust us more. It is not a miracle cure, but, I was able to take him to classes, be with other dogs and strangers, and he was able to obey basic commands. After a while I decided to wean him off the meds, he was about 4 years old. For 4 more years he was able to live a quality life. I know what you are going through...I am sorry that this stupid groomer undid all of your hard work. If there is anything I can do, just PM me.... |
| Thanks. The good news is that Amy is all cleared physically and has healed up very well. The vet was pleased with that. We came home with a prescription for clomipramine, which is an antidepressant that is usually prescribed for dogs with anxiety (separation or otherwise), OCD, aggression and inappropriate elimination. The sad/funny thing is that Amy obeyed really well, other than having to wear her "superhero mask" (better than calling it the muzzle of doom). She growled the whole time though, and of course, piddled. |
| So sorry to hear of Amy's set back. No advice to offer but ... Wishing you all the best. |
| I don't have personal experience with using any of the drugs for my dogs. I do have a student with a mastiff who has been using them, and between them, and coming to class, they both (human and dog) have made unbelievable progress. Halle is the dog, and they came to me for help with her - a 3 yr old mastiff with no outside training or socialization. Also she was from a total BYB, so no help or support to the family, no breeding for temperament, etc. She was muzzled, very reactive to any dog or human movement and was so close to needing to be euthanized, as the neighbors were reporting her in her town. And truly, if she ever got loose, it would have been bad. Only her human (a very dedicated guy) could do anything with her, and she trusts him totally. Thank goodness for that one saving grace. We did privates - as even me breaking into a fast walk, moving myself, even my arm, suddenly set her off in a barking and lunging frenzy. Once she mastered movement, and her human gained skills and confidence, they joined a small (3-4 dog) class, and even then started out working on the periphery (and luckily The Paw has a very large training center, with lots of space). Once she mastered that, she joined the class proper. At that time we still weren't doing an actual physical sit for exam, like the other students did. Instead I walked past her, and as she became more solid, came closer and closer. Jump ahead to now (and a bit over a year later) - she is able to do a stand for exam with her human at the end of a 6 foot lead, and I do the standard obedience exam. She's in my advanced class. She works in close proximity to other dogs...and right now my class is filled with some exuberant and strong personalities! Boxers, several GSD's, a reactive PON, and others more sedate.  She works on and off lead, depending on the exercise and if it will stress her. I always aim for the dog to be successful, so we gauge activities (for all my dogs!) to make the outcome work. She also has been doing various meds. I'm not sure what one she's on now. But the best action is that her human consulted with a behavioral vet (who can prescribe meds) and with some experimentation, they have hit on a good one and at a good dose. It was a slow process, as each drug was tried, doses trialed up and down, and some meds just plain didn't work. Also, her human is a confident handler now, and because her human is a good leader, she is able to relax and just be a dog. Before she totally picked up on his fears when he took her out in public, and she just escalated. So, a combo of things is what works, and that's common for most dogs as well. |
| The trainer doesn't think that Amy is hopeless. She was very concerned with Amy's behavior in class, but thinks her behavior at home isn't as bad as it could be. Amy is very fearful, which we figured. The trainer's plan is first to start with playing tug with a ropey-toy only for Amy (the dogs share their toys), not to be stored with the other toys. ( feel hesitant about this because I've always learned that you don't play tug with aggressive-tendency dogs. The trainer says that its teaching her to control her biting instinct. We are to keep working on obedience training here at home, and since Amy did ok in obedience 1, we'll go ahead and advance her to obedience 2. The trainer wanted to put Amy into agility too, in order to build her self-confidence. I have a scheduling conflict with that this term, so we'll put that off and focus on obedience class for now. The trainer wasn't too sure with how long it should take for Amy to acclimate to the drugs, but as she does then we'll be able to figure out how to progress. The trainer did say that Amy's resource guarding of me is eventually going to have to be dealt with. But right now we have a couple of steps to start taking. |
| I hope Dawn gets back to re: the tug game. I had heard that you shouldn't tug with a dog because of the potential for aggression but the training and reading that I did has changed my mind. When I tug with Tiggy (she loves it). She and I both know it's for fun. When she was young and silly instead of now when she is older and silly, tug games were for a VERY short amount of time. As soon as she started to get too excited and carried away, which would cause her to lunge and snatch and accidentally get my hand. The game stopped. No reprimand (I was agility training and didn't want to make tugging in any way negative) I just gave her a treat in exchange for the tug toy. She also started a growling thing for a bit and I didn't want that for lots of reasons including I just don't like growling. So again we stopped straight away and I exchanged the tug for a treat and we moved straight on to something/anything else. Sit, heel whatever. To be honest, the only trainers who I hear saying you shouldn't tug with your dog these days seem to be the very old fashioned trainers where it's all about the handler dominating their dog and I personally don't like that style of training as I don't think it contributes to the kind of relationship I want to have with my dog. That is just my very personal opinion though. Dawn is much, much more experienced with this stuff so take what I've said as my own personal experience as I attempt to become a better trainer. |
Mim, that helped me consider where that tug-toy information came from. Our old trainer, from when our first dog was a pup, was the old fashioned dominate the dog type of trainer. While we didn't really have to do much dominating in training that dog, a lot of our training as dog owners came with that mindset. Even with our research in gentler methods, those ideas still sneak up on us.  |
| Popping back in. Yes, I'd love to talk about tugging. I've been in dog sports my entire life....so I was part of that era where you didn't tug with a dog, especially a dog who might be of the "type" to have dominance (or lack of submissiveness, if you look at it the opposite way) issues. But modern tugging is nothing like that. In fact it is all about teamwork and is handler driven. The first thing is to teach your dog what tugging is, and to have fun with it. This is best done initially at home, or in some location that your dog is very comfortable in. You play with the dog, get them really happy and interactive with you. And when they want to engage their mouth, you flip or push (depending on the dog) your chosen tug item near or at them. Another way is to use the toy on the floor, and sweep it around in a figure 8 pattern. This will usually trigger a pounce onto the tug. Also - you may need to experiment on what tug your dog like best. I tried 3-4 things before finding that a braided or lariat woven fleece tug was Chewie's favorite, some were too hard, wrong texture, etc. Once you have the interest from your dog, you can structure it a bit. With a bigger dog (like OES), there are a couple preferred ways. First it to grip the tug item with both hands, leaving a space in the middle (as a target) for the dog to grip and tug with you. This is handy as you can brace yourself really well with a vigorous puller. Another is to have a long tug item (like a braided, or similar material that is long, or has a long loop handle, etc), that you can flip at them (still holding your end) and they will grab their end and you both pull. I actually do both of these methods, just depends on the situation. With either way, you want the dog to do this correctly. Important is that they learn to grip the tug on the 1st grab. No letting go and regrabbing! This is dangerous for you - you will get bit, as they are trying to move up the tug further. Tug ends immediately if they ever try this. One grab only - and they really learn to grab well and correctly. Also - you don't let go. The big benefit is this makes you a TEAM - they only do this with you. When they love it, they look to you to tug.  Big goal met - you have your dog's undivided attention. I also found that tugging releases built up tension in your dog - whether its good or bad tension. They might be too excited about something, or too stressed, but either way it fixes things for them. And lastly - you end the tug session. Best is to end it while the dog still wants more. Not when they are completely vented. You don't want them to let go and walk away - you just lost their attention, they are done with you. Instead, stop with them still engaged with you and wanting more! I use my verbal "all done" command to have Chewie stop. He knew the word already, so it was an easy transition. When you practice tugs, do several starts and stops - so they learn that ending is not the total end of fun - more of that always wanting more stuff. Bond's just been starting tugging - he engages, and stops. I'm still fine tuning his preferred tug object. I have friends who use tugging when their dog is stressed - as it's a positive distraction for the dog. Some dogs are not comfortable tugging in public - again, usually because they are a bit stressed in that environment they are in. So it's a learning progression - from tugging in the home turf, to tugging in a more stressful situation. There is also the school of people who say you must start tugging with them as a puppy, or they never will do it. Not true. Chewie started at about 3 yrs, Bond at about 2 yrs. It's more about can you engage your dog to the point they will tug? And it takes effort on your part...and it's funny too - as dogs can tell if you are being "fake" fun, just to get them to tug, or if you really truly are having fun and want to play with them.   So it really makes you a better partner with your dog.Those are the items that immediately came to mind, I'm sure I'm forgetting things. But it's a start.  |
| I'm SO so sorry to read about these things that you and Amy are dealing with. I will vouch for training helping dogs with issues. My guys have fighting problems, a result of my getting them from an irresponsible breeder. We've made so much progress thanks to training. A couple of years ago we added Prozac to the equation; even though our girls were fighting far less often (down from 5 days a week to once every few months) the fights themselves were getting more serious. They went from being a lot of noise and no real damage to resulting in vet trips for stitches. The Prozac changed everything for us, in a really positive way. Getting the dose right can be a trick sometimes, and keeping it right can be as well. And giving your dog a chemical can't replace training, but should be considered as a complement to training. But if your vet is interested in trying it, it may not be a bad idea. |
| Your threads and posts about your dogs, along with Val's posts about her dog Cosmo, gave me a lot of confidence when talking to the vet and trainer. I'm so glad that you posted about adding Prozac to your regimen a couple of years ago. I am very grateful. |
| Having a dog with issues can be a big challenge. And it's not the sort of challenge that is going to be a good fit for every owner or every family. We don't have kids, so I didn't have that added concern. We're not rich, but we make enough that we can pay for ongoing training classes, if we think our girls need it. I had no previous experience with dog training, and the last dog I owned was actually my parent's dog- It would have been 30 years ago and I was 8 years old. My husband (then boyfriend) had never owned a dog. But we're lucky that we have been able to do what we needed to, and met the people along the way that could help us to give our girls the best life we think they can have. That being said, they've traveled with us all across the country, and have even been up to Canada. They've done agility classes, obedience classes, and we're thinking herding is next. They swim and go hiking. Our dogs lead big, full lives; and as near as I can tell, they are very, very happy. |
| Dawn's post was great at explaining the mechanics and uses of tugging. I definitely second the teach them to grab the tug once. I didn't know about that when I taught Tiggy to tug and she did get me a few times. No real damage but yeow did it hurt. Once I yelped it hurt so much and she shut down and wouldn't tug because she knew she'd hurt me. I felt really bad because it was an accident. But we've got it sorted now. I usually use a double hand technique because Tiggy is so strong. |
I am so disgusted and angry at that groomer!!  Someone experienced to do that to any dog let alone one who has some special circumstances!!!!! Poor Amy!!  Do you have a Petco or another place where you can do self-service baths? It is a great bonding experience and fun!I have one who is very concerned especially with men but some women as well. She does love kids though. We went to 'school' to build self confidence and socialization. She liked her trainer and she interacted well with the other dogs. It took a while, (4 classes) before she would go up to the 2 men in class cautiously. Treats and praise. She passed beginners and intermediates. Macie Grace would be a great therapy dog if she weren't so concerned about people and noises. HOPEFULLY we will get there. I have only had her a year and she has come along but we do have more work to do. Don't count Amy out too soon. You never really know what she went through before you adopted her. She is so lucky to have you. Lots of love, patience and training. Dawn is the expert. You can't go wrong with her advice. I would be happy to do voodoo dolls of the groomer and her son.........................................  |
| I don't mind bathing her here at home, we've got a huge tub and a shower wand that makes it easy enough. I really wanted her to have a haircut so we could start her coat over. She had some areas that she didn't like us to work on so I thought we could get her a spring shave and condition her to the brushing when she didn't have any hair to worry about. She didn't even get the whole shave that I wanted. Its helpful to hear about dogs like Macie Grace who are overcoming their issues. It gives me hope for Amy. I also appreciate the information on the tugging game. It makes more sense now. I ended up having to order a new rope-toy since Petsmart didn't have the size we need. I was told to get a new rope that's just for this game with Amy, so I haven't started yet. |
| That makes me so MAD about the groomer! SOMEONE HOLDING HER DOWN! I would have flipped, FLIPPED! Hope things work out! Don't give up, I know how frustrating and disrupting to your whole family it can be!! You just want to all live a normal, happy, fun doggie life, but there is always a light at the end of the tunnel! |
| Here's a thought about shaving those tough areas. Why not ask your vet if they will do a hygiene trim? If your vet is aware of the behavioral issues you are having, why not see if they can help with trimming those sensitive areas? Mine has done this in the past; before I owned clippers. You could do the other parts, and then see if your vet can help with the rest. The other option is anesthesia. Now you don't want to do that for your dog unnecessarily, as there are always risks involved, same as with people. But say Amy is going for a teeth cleaning, see if they can do a trim at the same time. I often save a bunch of stuff for a single anesthesia at dental time. Tonks has been growing little fatty masses, and once a year she gets her teeth cleaned and bumps removed. In fact we are due in the next week or two...! |
| That's a good idea. I'll remember that for when we need to do it again. In the meantime, she is doing better at letting me brush her, and we've got just a small area where she gets upset. After she was first groomed she wouldn't let me get close with the brush, but I bought some new brushes, combs and treats and she seems a lot more at ease with the idea. I have to laugh. I've started trying the rope-tug game with her. Apparently, all of that previous, "no tug" stuff we've done with her kicked in and she looked at me like I was crazy and breaking all sorts of rules, then she huffed and laid down in the yard. She wants the new rope toy. She'd love to play with it, but not if mama isn't going to play by the rules. And playing tug isn't in the rules! Crazy dog. |
| I know that look of 'Whaaaat are you crazy? I don't do that!' I can just imagine the huff. I spent lots of time training Tiggy to get off the furniture, so when I started teaching 'on' she gave me that are you crazy look. Once she got 'on' and 'off' though it was one of her favourite training games. I think she liked feeling a little bit naughty when I told her to get 'on' stuff, even the agility table. Our vet always smiles because Tiggy gets quite happy when I ask her to get on the exam table. Once I help her up there though she kinda realises she's been had and there's a thermometer or other indignities involved.  |
| you might want to try Ice on Ice. Someone here recommended it and it works really good on Bella's tough spots. You just spray a little on the area that you need to work on and then brush or comb as needed. I also make sure that if there is a mat or tangle to hold the clump of hair between the skin and the mat. A little insurance not to tug on the sensitive skin. |
| Update: The trainer came by yesterday and said that Amy's behavior change is dramatic. We'll start the next obedience class, and keep working to condition Amy to not be reactive. I asked specifically if she would say Amy is back to where she was before all of this happened, and she said Amy is beyond that. The trainer thinks as long as Amy is medicated she isn't worried about aggression with her. That's not to say that Amy won't be have another episode, but she isn't a danger at this point. |
Great news!!  |
| I'm so glad you're making progress forward! Go Amy!!! |
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