|Interesting. The forum dog whose prozac constantly needs to be adjusted was "trained" with a shock collar. |
I am probably about to kiss goodbye the respect of anyone on this forum, but we have had so many of the same behavioural issues as others here, but we solved our biggest problems with a shock collar. We got it for jumping up and nipping as our dog was launching herself at people and ripping their clothes, even making our 80 year old neighbour bleed. She was an out of control nightmare we couldn't take anywhere. We have had the collar for two months and used the shock function ONCE. We've used the vibration at level 2 out of 10 about six times, and the beeper about twenty times. We don't even have to put the collar on anymore. We just beep the handheld device and she runs under the table and lies down. No jumping, no nipping. Done. For a brilliant knucklehead like a sheepdog, it's ideal. They are the fastest learners I've ever seen. But with them, you have to turn up the volume. Sorry, but it's true. Call me whatever you like, I have a wonderful dog who knows her place. And it didn't take prozac or ten years of behavioral intervention. Good luck with your behaviour issues, to one and all.
Interesting indeed. So you beep it and she runs under the table in fear. It seems that you have trained the dog out of jumping and nipping but to fear. Which can be a dangerous situation in its self. Good luck on the future behavior issues you have caused in this dog.
A shock collar shouldn't be used on a 7-9 month old puppy without trying other options first.
|Fear is a wonderful tool. Ask any mob boss.|
|I hope it works and that you'll be able to transition away from it as soon as you can.|
I hope it works and that you'll be able to transition away from it as soon as you can.
I'm at a loss to comment on so many levels so I'll just quote Ron.
|This does bring up an interesting issue. What are the most frequent behavioral problems brought to the forum? Puppies of various ages jumping up, pulling, nipping, out of control. Clearly people aren't being taught how to deal with these issues properly. Here's what I'm proposing: we find one or two of these juvenile delinquents in the MN area and send them to Dawn (Got Sheep), who tapes a few sessions of working on these issues and teaching the owners to effectively do the same. |
It's just a stage, it's not uncommon, but if you don't know how to deal with it, it can be frustrating and even potentially dangerous (elderly person or child getting mowed down or nipped etc, setting puppy up to become a 90 pound Dennis the Menace) Plus you can inadvertently make it worse. A lot of dogs that end up in rescue flunk out of homes this way. And it's MUCH harder to fix the problems later, rather than intercede and not let them develop in the first place. Well behaved dogs are not born, they are made.
OK, Dawn - this is your assignment, should you choose to accept Obviously we are grossly failing pet owners on some important level.
didn't wanna watch anymore election debates.
|Well, you could all watch on the web cams at The Paw (for FREE) when I'm teaching class. |
No sound, but actions speak louder than words...especially for a dog. They are dogs, and English is a 2nd language! They are much more adept at reading body language.
The best situation is where bad things never happen (managing the situation to set your dog up for SUCCESS, not failure) or 2nd best is nipping an undesirable behavior in the bud - like it happens ONCE and never again.
The more repetitions there are of a habit, the more likely it is to be repeated. This works for both positive and negative stuff - use it to your advantage!!
|Bosley is almost 9 months old and he has gone through the nipping stage and the jumping stage, but I think I've taken a different approach. I see these as developmental stages that require my guidance to teach him how to act in any situation. No different than a child. Unwanted behaviors do need to be corrected but they also need to be replaced with acceptable behaviors. It has taken awhile, but probably half my neighborhood now knows that they have to turn their backs on Bosley if he tries jumping. He only gets the reward (petting) IF he behaves appropriately. Unfortunately, I've seen that it only takes one person to allow it, to reinforce the jumping, which takes you back to square one in training. Consistency was my key. Every time, every day. Just as I raised my child. |
I'm sure that fear does inhibit unwanted behaviors, but I'd be very concerned about ruling through fear and not also teaching more appropriate behaviors. Personally, I think Bosley would be crushed if he were to be shocked by a collar. He's such a "drama" boy that he cowers if I raise my voice even a little (and he's NEVER been struck, hit, shocked, or abused in any way!)
|gosh i tryed one of those air horns from the dollar store one time on dreamer and poor thing coward for hours and ran into his room ..i never forgave myself for that one..|
|I always thought a shock collar was a bad idea and then I saw the episode of 'Jacka$$' where they tricked some of the cast and told them it was a new style of mic. The response of these guys cast my opinion in concrete. Couldn't imagine doing that to a dog.|
|In the hands of a trained professional, there may possibly be some reason for using a shock collar. Possibly, but doubtful. Without exhausting every other possible training method attempts, it's very dangerous and a quick way to ruin a nice dog.|
My neighbor's dog is a good example. Rather than seeking out a good trainer for their rare sporting dog puppy, they decided that a "remote trainer" was the way to go. They seem to be really popular for hunting dogs because after all, they sell them at Bass Pro Shop and other outdoor stores.
My neighbor's husband is impatient and has disliked this dog from the start. Forget the fact they only thought this would be a cool breed because nobody else around had one. The wife is clueless about dog behavior and let's be honest: They're impatient. And lazy. The dog reacts like they want with the collar on. She claims she only tones the dog. Husband isn't afraid to zap her. And does. If the battery dies or the remote control gets lost, this dog is totally untrained, crazed and disobedient.
Why not sign up for a class with a top-notch HUMANE trainer that can help you and your dog learn commands? You'll be surprised how much better your dog behaves in all situations, not just when being shocked into submission.
|I'm really sorry you felt you had to resort to a shock collar. Training a dog not to jump and nip is one of the hardest things to do.|
I have two OES, one from a pup and one as a rescue of 2.6yrs. Both come with unique problems but if you start training from the get go and keep it up, you end up with pretty good dogs. Some dogs are hard to train and some are easy. Both of mine were middle of the road on some things and knuckle heads on others. I had them both to school and learned what worked for both dogs personalities. I will say personalities again because you can't train every dog the same. Some dogs need firmness and not giving an inch and some dogs it takes once and their good to go.
My wish for you and your dog would to be to go to class, learn how to curb these problems, and to drop the shock collar.
It takes a lot of work and you have to be commited but in the end you would both be much happier.
|They all go through stages. Bloo is going through the teenage stage now. Hes jumping up and biting and running off when i let him off lead. So now im restricting him to the tennis courts and practising our recall, and when visitors come/when we go visit people i take a hand load of ham/chicken and distract his mind by doing tricks with him. He still goes crazy but after doing about 5 tricks he calms down and doesnt bite. He used to pull on the lead badly, but i stuck with it, stopped each time he pulled and hey now he doesnt pull on the lead! |
I never thought id manage Bloo a few months ago, i was really on the edge with him. But after all the help and motivation from my friends and people off the oes.org forum, ive pushed past the problems and solved "most of them".
Im sorry but i dont agree with shock collars. It just teaches the dog fear as they will get anxiety about you telling them off incase it shocks them again. I personally dont know anything about shock collars because luckily they are completely BANNED here in the UK, as they are cruel and unnecesary, and go against the welfare of the dog. We can buy shock spray, which is basically compressed air that makes a loud noise when you squirt it, but certainly not anything that is pysical to the dog.
Im glad youve sorted things out, but i personally believe you dont have to have equipment like shock collars to solves dogs behaviour.
|for regular training, i dont think a shock collar is necessary...a pop can with some pennies or rocks works just as well...all you want to do is distract their attention...|
now that said, i HAVE used the shock collar (or i should say a trainer) on panda. remember when we had slim, the desert turtle? Panda used to flip him over and chew on his shell...no amount of good correcting worked...and we tried and tried.....i believe she really though that he was her personal walking rawhide.
i had the trainer shock her every time she even looked at slim....it was the WORST thing that i ever witnessed....after that panda would run away from slim and if she were laying on the grass and he came up to her, she would hi-tail it away from him...
We got the result that we wanted, but honestly, it was just horrific....
|You mean people don't like it when their dog jumps up to lick you hello? Who doesn't like sheepie kisses!|
|None of my 3 sheepies jump up. Gracie and Mady we trained from day 1, simply put we held out our hands like a block if they went to jump. We didn't have to say anything. They'd just jump into the block and it wouldn't be what they were looking for by jumping, so it stopped really quickly. It didn't take long, they simply do not jump up on people since a very young age. When Mady or Gracie is superexcited to see someone, they wiggles their bum off and twists around like a pretzel, trying to have both their wiggling bum and their face facing the person. It's beyond adorable.|
The nipping is really annoying, we didn't train them out of it as much as they grew out of it by 4 months or so. Well, Mady really. I don't even recall Gracie nipping us, she had Mady and her mum Virginia to nip and Virginia in particular trained her out of it! Nothing like having the momma dog around to help train the puppy!
|Well...............one point, if one chooses to use an electric collar (yes they are e collars) You do set the collar to an anoying buzz sort of thing Kind of like if someone is poking you on the arm saying sit! if you sit the annoying poking stops ..so when you state a command you ease up on the collar BUT the dog should never know that you are in controll of the annoying buzz DO NOT point the control at the dog and zap!!! Saying that when you pick up the control ,the dog runs, shows that you were not properly trained to use it. Yes I have used an e collar 2 times in my life on dogs I did not, however, point the control at the dog and shock them till they danced|
just my two cents and a cup of tea
Mad Dog wrote:
Interesting. The forum dog whose prozac constantly needs to be adjusted was "trained" with a shock collar.
Having dogs with behavioral issues can be challenging on the best of days, and an emotional nightmare on the worst of them. When your vet asks you to consider re-homing or euthanizing your dog, you let me know which outlandish options you wouldn't be willing to try to keep your dog safe, as well as the people you and your dog have to interact with safe as well. Roll your eyes all you want but some of us care enough about our dogs to try everything at least once to help our dogs live normal, or as close to normal lives as they can.
I hope your comment isn't referring to me, and to my dog Tonks. I've been a member here for a long time, and had thought I'd earned the respect of our community through my commitment not only to my own dogs, but to the breed in general through my work with rescue and other sheepdog specific charitable endeavors. I haven't had to adjust Tonks' Prozac since we started her using it over a year ago, so it's possible you aren't talking about me. But in case you are, you should know that It was my vet who recommended the e collar training we used and still use to this day. The collars didn't contribute to my dog needing to be on Prozac; that was all about the irresponsible breeding practices of the woman I got her from.
I've said it on other threads and I'll say it again; the growing judgmental nature of this message board is making it more and more difficult to want to come on here and be an active member of the community. This member posted with their personal experiences; if you disagree with what they are doing, you aren't going to win them over to your way of thinking by criticizing them or making snide and judgmental comments. I think it would be better to offer help and suggestions of other training options than it would to make nasty comments and post emoticons that make fun or criticize.
|My interpretation of the original poster's experience was that conventional training methods had not been exhausted. Allison, most of us know the journey you've been through with your pups and you have tried doing things the conventional way without success. Many times. Plus, you enlisted the help of someone who knew what they were doing. Nobody can fault you for choosing a more unconventional method of training vs. euthanizing your girls. |
And Cindy is one of the most dog-savvy people I know with all breeds. And not one to use such a tool when other means work effectively. Admittedly, sometimes they don't. There's always an exception. I've had a few I thought could possibly benefit but managed to work out their issues before it reached that point.
Way too many people have dropped off this forum because the discussions have either become too heated or too boring. I don't believe anyone voiced their opinions here to point fingers at anyone (okay, I did as an example but not at anyone involved with OES or any member of this forum). Everyone needs to do what they know is right in their situation. We still have that luxury in this country for the most part. Personally, I like having such discussions because they often bring up ideas that have never been mentioned before. I haven't left this forum yet because occasionally a thread like this does come along!
|Alison reading your posts & I think you have done a great job & people should be hugging you but thats just my point of view. How many things do us humans take to get us through a day so why can't we do this for our pets|
|allison, my post was just to let members know how an e collar is to be used, not pointing the finger at you. You have worked very hard with your dogs, most would have given up. I applaud your efforts. My molly is on an antianxiety med. She is very uncomfortable in new situations and has a nervous woo woo woo bark. She knows her commands and is a loving girl (you should see her at my sheep do oh rama , she is the belle of the ball) when I take her out she barks but her whole body is in motion...people grab their kids up. Medication for canines and humanes alike is appropiate. Many years ago I watched a man train his lab to hunt with an e collar He "shocked " him to stay in line to find the bird. I then decided I would see what this was all about. I learned how to use one....I found it to be very interesting The man training the lab may have been beeping the dog not shocking. I will never know. I also thought prongs were barbaric. I then learned from a very well known GSD trainer how to properly fit and use. Knowledge is power when training a dog. I still train my dogs in a martingale type collar but have used an e and prong collar when appropiate.(training fosters) A dog should never be trained to be fearful That is innapropiate. I see many folks with a e collar on the dogs and they point the control at the dog , give a command and if the dog does not do it they SHOCK them aughhh|
By the way I have neglected my dogs ongoing training because I have spent so much time on rescue. So sat everyone will see what as@#s my sheepdogs are..my GSD may be right behind them. All my dogs undesirable behaviors are my fault. There are no bad dogs just bad ownere (not directed at anyone on this forum:)
|Cindy, Nita Parwaz; thank you so very much for your responses on this. You can't imagine how upset I was when I went to bed last night after reading and responding to this. To think that after everything I've done, that some board members still think it's okay to use me or my dogs as either the butt of their jokes or as an example of how not to train dogs was simply the worst feeling.|
E collars are not a simple thing, and I would never recommend anyone enter into training with them lightly, or without the help of a professional trainer who has a training back ground specifically in these collars. That being said, we still need to discuss the subject calmly and rationally if we are going to help people and their dogs. Varieties of these collars are sold in stores everywhere; an unknowing dog owner may think its simply a commonly done and accepted practice based on this evidence.
Having aggressive dogs is not an easy thing. On the best of days it is a challenge and over coming it can be tremendously rewarding. On the worst of days it is a nightmare; this has lost me the respect of many people, friendships, countless nights of sleep, and several ounces of blood, sweat, and tears- literally. So to hear some members reduce my struggle to a joke with a and a was enough to make me consider quitting the board. It's difficult enough to work constantly with my girls to get them even close to "normal"; I don't need to be bullied about it as well.
|See, this is where things go awry. One person makes a reply and someone takes it personal where it wasn't meant to go.|
I have been slammed on here and sometimes think of not coming back. But it makes me think and "maybe" I wasn't doing things right, or saying things right or just being a nitwit.
Please don't think I am aiming this at any one person...just a general observation
I think you have done an amazing job with Tonks. You have done everything possible to make sure that Tonks can have a life at all. Had she been with someone who doesn't have your dedication and persistence, I think she would have been euthanized. I know that you tried the e-collar with a professional trainer after exhausting other options, and did not make the decision lightly.
Unfortunately, too many folks don't invest the time and energy that you have in training, and use a shock collar to deal with the most mundane of puppy training issues. Too many folks want a quick fix to housebreaking, or nipping, normal behaviors that are quite simple to handle with an small investment in time and energy. Also, I think there is this myth out there that dog aggression is rampant. A friend's son just got a 16 week GSD puppy, that has been growling at other dogs. He immediately jumped to the conclusion that the puppy is aggressive, and has started looking into a shock collar. This is the way you damage a dog forever, in my opinion. I tried to explain that this is most likely a puppy stage, and much more related to fear or anxiety than true aggression, but I'm not sure I got through to them.
Tonks is a whole different ballgame. Her brain is simply wired funny, and for her to live a peaceful and rewarding life, she requires a lot of management, which you have provided in spades. Though Oscar's issues are health related, and not behavioral, I feel a kinship with you as we always have to walk a tightrope, trying to figure out the best thing to do as we lurch from crisis to crisis. We are both trying to achieve balance.
Please don't leave the forum. We know how much you've done for your girls, and how much you love them. I respect you for it. I also respect the fact that you talk openly about your issues with Tonks, and share your experiences with us, to help us all learn.
Laurie and Oscar
|thanks for the feedback, guys. I did think about leaving; it's surprising just how badly your feelings can get hurt on these things. But not long after I posted, I received an email from someone that had read my response, and wanted more information on what we'd gone through. I forget that 5 years ago I promised myself that I'd be here so that people can learn from my experiences, that hopefully the progress we've made can inspire other people, and that by writing about our mistakes that maybe some folks can be helped to avoid them. So I may not post as much as I once did, but I'm still here.|
Darth Snuggle wrote:
thanks for the feedback, guys. I did think about leaving; it's surprising just how badly your feelings can get hurt on these things. But not long after I posted, I received an email from someone that had read my response, and wanted more information on what we'd gone through. I forget that 5 years ago I promised myself that I'd be here so that people can learn from my experiences, that hopefully the progress we've made can inspire other people, and that by writing about our mistakes that maybe some folks can be helped to avoid them. So I may not post as much as I once did, but I'm still here.
Just because others don't agree with your way of handling your dogs, doesn't mean you should stop posting any less. YOU live with your dogs, you did everything you could and what worked for you, and in return, saved their lives. What you did for them is amazing and inspirational. Don't let anyone tell you less, everyone will always have an opinion, but if you help even just 1 person with your knowledge and experiences, then you have done something wonderful!
I respect you so much for all that you share
|Allison I think you have earned the respect of anyone on this forum with more than |
two brain cells. I have the utmost admiration for all you have done and I enjoy your
posts very much. Please don't allow someones' insensative and ignorant remark effect
you. I have been in your shoes as well and you just have to let it roll off your back.
Now, that said, I totally took that comment the same way you did and I was offended
on your behalf.
As for the shock collars... I DID use it for one of my guys. I will say that I tested it on
myself before I used it on him. I did not find it painful, but I also didn't ever use the
higher settings. I was not trying to hurt my dog, just get his attention and redirect him.
I do think that an experienced person can use them under the right circumstances with
good results. But only with experience and guidance and only as a redirectin tool, never
never to hurt or in anger.
|It is a shame when some folk take things the wrong way and upset others. I have learnt a few thing by reading other peoples problems etc. Sometimes it is a relief to know that others may have the same problem as me and how they overcame or deal with it. I think that each dog is different and only the owner who lives daily with the problems can really decide what's best for them-advice is good but you don't have to take it-our fluffs are not a "one size fits all" they are like humans,all different.xx|
|Well, I've opened up a real can of worms here. I didn't intend to create a space for anyone to feel hurt, that's for sure! I haven't used the collar again, but we've still got some serious problems with aggression and we will seek professional help. Today a friend of my daughter's came in and Daisy bit her sleeve (thank goodness just her sleeve) and was growling and aggressive. Walks are a nightmare if we come across anyone or anything alive. It's a little annoying to hear comments like "who doesn't like dog kisses?" when your dog is hurling herself at people and knocking them over. This is not cute. I knew being honest would have its drawbacks. It's kind of like trying to explain to people who only have girls what having a boy is like. Now that the smoke has cleared a bit I would like to thank those who commented, and I appreciated both your honesty and your time.|
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