Problem is that whenever she sees another dog she has this whiney, high pitch bark. She wants to go play or something. Of course the dogs turn and run. So I have to keep her in sitting position until they are out of sight. I have a bad wrist, so I don't allow her to pull on the leash too much. But when she sees another dog, she leaps into the air "screaming". So I have to get her to sit. We live in a big neighborhood with over 600 houses and many dogs and cats. Most of them are not loose. Doesn't matter, even if they are behind a fence, Abbi will still act up.
I have to walk and Abbi needs to walk. But I am getting tired of the ongoing battle. Lately, the minute she starts it up I return her to the backyard and finish the walk up myself. She looks so miserable when I get home. If I have time I try to walk her again. Sometimes she is an angel, but most times she becomes this "screaming mess".
She is very well-behaved at home. Lies at my feet or on her carpet. She will sit, speak, lay down, fetch, fetch her leash, and bow on command. But she does challenge her position from time to time, by pushing through the door when we let her back in, trying to go out first, running over my daughter if she kneels down (not that my daughter doesn't return the favor), ...
Now that the kids have returned to school she lays around sighing and trying to make me pet her any time I sit down.
I would take her on more walks if she would behave every time. I am sure she is bored and needs to release some energy; I try to go play fetch with her in the back but after 5-10 minutes she wants to go inside. Now she wants me to play fetch inside, which is not allowed.
Is there any way to get her to calm down around other dogs? If she would behave I could walk her to some fields with some shade, but at this time I do not trust her. There are 2 highways and many busy streets around the neighborhood.
I actually tried to walk her blind folded. The first half of the walk I was pulling her along, but by the second half she had her nose to the ground and was trying to paw off the blind fold. That wasn't any fun for either of us.
|You dog sounds very well behaved in a calm and familar environment. She knows the expectations and the rules. I would assume in order to get her this far in life you have had to be consistent and firm in your expectations. It sounds to me like she hasn't been conditioned to understand the rules in other settings. I had a similar issues with my OES. I had to condition appropriate behavior in a controled setting with on variable changed (bring in a new dog to my backyard). I train with 2 Q collars on my OES. One collar has a short line (5-10 feet) which is tied to a stationary object and the other collar has a longer line 10-20 feet which I keep as her leash. I taught her a word to be calm (her word is "easy") I conditioned this word first all by herself by saying the word when she "hit" the end of her line tied to a stationary object. She learned very quickly easy meant not to pull and to be calm. I then repeated this exercise with a "new" dog but I kept this dog outside her "circle of activity" which means there is no way for her to come in contact with the new dog. Using the second line on her collar I enforce the "easy" command. She has no choice but to be easy because I pulled her into a correction and to get outof it she needs to follw through on the command. In the same way I would teach her a "wait" command. Enter her "circle of activity" and right before you exit it tell her "wait" If she fails to wait the line to the stationary object enforces it and she waits without you struggling with her. Once she knows this you can tie her leash inside to something and condition her to wait at the door or wait by a child or so forth. I have also trained with weights as a means to calm dogs down, but I think I have gone on about this enough. I have a ton to say on this topic, it's training manners not obedience and is quite different from the traditional obedience training methods. I have found it to be highly successful, and quick to train. Although it requires consistancy and a shift in training mentality. Please let me know if you would like more information there is alos information on the web about the Q collar.
Gosh I sure can go on about this.
Excellent reply. I hope you do "go on" with more information on the successful training methods you are using, they sound very interesting.
|I guess I do need to change styles. I have been working with her for 4 years and there is one thing I have learned. If she doesn't respond to one way, just try another. She loves change .. to a point.
Problem is this two collar business. I need to research it a bit more.
Since we are the last house on a LONG cul de sac, we see many strays at our door. Our animal control here is sub standard. The police come and stick the dog into a one size fits all crate on a truck and will leave a dog there all weekend. Then stick the poor things in a kennel by the treatment plant outside of town.
This HUGE Doberman found its way to my door. When the police told me what they were going to do to this well trained gorgeous animal, I asked if I could just keep the dog until the owner was found. It had an out of city tag.
I left the dog into the backyard. Abbi was inside and going crazy. The doberman looked quite curious and was the friendliest, calmest animal I had ever met. So I put Abbi on a lead and Alex (the doberman) on a lead. They both broke their leads in about ... maybe 4 minutes. These were fairly good nylon leads, I had thought they were great ones before they broke at the stiching.
The dogs had a gay old time. Shared their bowls, slept together ... were great together. This doberman was a good 6 inches higher than Abbi too.
Whenever Abbi was rough, Alex just grabbed her rough and jumped over her. It was wonderful. I found Alex's owner and returned her later that week.
Point is, Abbi breaks leads. I put her on a metal one, and the swivel got tangled in her hair (she started yelping and wouldn't move -- she's such a baby).
I need to work on that "easy" command. I have a "come back" command to get her to heal again. I am working on the "leave it" command. She has never been great at "stay", but sit is always adhered to, so I feel pretty confident about taking her anywhere.
Took her to my parents 36 acres this weekend and she treed their cat in less than 90 seconds. The cat thing is probably my fault. We lived in Argentina, it's where Abbi was born. We had cats coming into the house and yard all the time. So we would all grab brooms and pails of water and chase the cats out of the yard 2-3 times a day. All 5 of us ... including 8 week old Abbi. But she should know the difference between running a cat out of the yard and going out and hunting them down, shouldn't she??
The ones that do not run, she does not bother. Except she barks at them, if they run, the chase is on. Otherwise she goes looking for one that will run. Unless I am walking her, then she sits in the street until we have had a talk. If I say no before she gets interested, she unwillingly will go by without barking. But she will walk backwards to watch them, until I correct her again. She is a great dog. But STUBBORN!
Putting two collars and lines on her sounds a bit invovled, but if I could get her to understand faster it would be so worth it.
My two daughters want another dog or pet. They feel Abbi is mine and they want one they can walk and play with without my interference. As IF! But I guess they are right, Abbi is most obedient to me or my husband (but that I think is out of fear -- he is strict and hard to read). Victor is not home much. And my eldest is at college. So the two younger girls are looking for their own companion.
But I would like to make sure Abbi would accept another dog first. I think she would, but she tends to try for alpha position constantly ....
Thanks for the training advice. You did not ramble near as much as I do...
|An interesting component to the Q collar is the addition of weights. Heads up... read this with an open mind. Many people hear the concept and are turned off, really think about the principals behind it before forming an opinion.
I do not know how familar you are with the principle of using weights to tone down or calm down behaviors. They use it a lot when training horses. A similar principle is used in special populations of children. There are weighted vests and weighted blankets and all kinds of neat therapy tools that help children with special needs center themselves to prepare for class or whatever. Anyway a similar approach can be used with the dog.
A dog that is capable of breaking a prety heavy duty lead needs to learn how to take the edge off. By using weights, the dog has no choice but to calm down because it is so much work to be obnoxious. It forces the dog to make the decision to be a "good" dog. This is a very quick principle to teach the dog, but you have to be willing to use the weight. Eventually, you will be able to use a small snap attached to the collar to serve as the weight becuase it is enough at that point to calm the dog and they know even more can be added at any time.
However, to teach this like I said you have to be willing to use the weight, and this is where people get turned off because they think they will hurt the dog. I have seen many many dogs trained this way and sure they will fight it at first, but not one has taken longer than 15 or 20 minutes to figure out to knock it off. And they all remember what happened.
So for weights, I use links of chains. It has to be enough to make the dog work hard to be naughty and enough that they WILL make the decision to behave. You use snaps and create a colar out of the chain and put it around the dogs neck. You can also add chains to the one on the neck that dangle down to make it obnoxious to jump around because they hit themselves with the chain. (Mind you this activity should never be done unless the dog is using the 2 q collars and hooked on on a double line. ) I also have to say it took at least 35-40 pounds for my maddie. She just did not want to stop.
Anyway in now time, the dog will be laying on the floor, or just walking slowly around. This is the point to introduce a new animal. The dog should want to be crazy....but be forced to make a decision not to (even though you helped that decision along with the weights). As soon as you have a calm dog ("easy"). You can reduce the weight. Not at once. Gradually. Leave the option open to put it back on. You are the one in charge not the dog. If done correctly the do should only have to experience this one time. Sure you will probably need to add one chain when you go out as a reminder. Which will gradually be reduced to one snap, but that process takes a little longer.
I am sure this is confusing, so please ask questions. I personally like training this way because the dog never sees me struggle and I am always in control.
|You know what is working with Shanti? roll up a newspaper, and hit it on a table or wall when he is doing something that you deslike. At the sometime you should say with a firm voice tone foii.... This tip was given by a trainner. Hope helps. It is helping me with Shanti....
|My husband read this post, and he commented that things were a little confusing. First this method is used in dealing with agression. Agression towards other dogs, people, even play can be considered agressive at times.
2nd. The weight that I commented on with Maddie...Most of it was dumb bells on the floor with a line attached to her collar. It wasn't directly hanging from her neck at all times, but if she lunged for another dog 1st it would make it impossible for her to get to the dog and 2nd it forces her to use so much energy she makes the decidion she better not do that.
3rd. Agressive dogs have reasons for being agressive. Many times a comes down to they don't trust you to protect them and they feel they must do it themselves. (1 time at a park Maddie was bit by another dog. She was just a puppy, and to me it wasn't a big thing. However this is what started her issues with agression). This exercise builds up the dogs trust in you. Once the dog decidses to be easy they are dependent on you to make sure nothing bad happens to them. By making this a positive experience, the dog learns very quickly they do not have to pull on the line and lunge at other dogs.
Anyway I probably didn't clear things up much. But I just wanted to let all of you know I am not the one creating this. I go to class and learn and now help out at the training seminars. A professional trainer with years and years of training with a variety of methods is starting this. She wanted a quick efficient way of training all types of dogs with any number of issues and after many years of experimenting came up with the Q collar as an alternative the the choke chain and pinch colar and even the gentle leader. This is just one method of dealing with dogs with issues of agression. I only know this one works becuase I too had a dog with these issues.
|So the dog has on 2 collars, attached to two leads? Or is it just one lead, doubled? I better go look this up, I did not remember anything about weights. I thought the dog was free to lunge on one lead, but you held the other one and interrupted any lunging. Instead, it sounds like there's weight on the other lead, so that if the dog tries to lunge towards something (dog, cat, person) , it is kept grounded by the weight on the other collar.
I must admit to being defensive about my dog having aggression problems. She has NEVER bit anyone or any other pet. She has caught a few birds and injured one of them. But she dropped it at my feet. She was rather proud. I spent 6 weeks nursing the bird back to health. So Abbi doesn't think much of birds, but she doesn't go after them with her former zeal either.
She wants to run something. If the something will run, then the chase is on. And she cannot be allowed to do this. And she isn't allowed to do this, but she still wants to, as you would notice if you saw her whining at the window when a dog or cat comes into (or even towards) our yard.
And this training method actually seems less harsh than a lot others I have seen.
I need to make time to look into this. Thanks for all of the input.
Danik! Hola. I tried rolled up newspaper and "Stop!" when she was a puppy. Abbi now stays away from me if I am even reading a newspaper. The newspaper works when you constantly use it, but it doesn't actually train the dog. It trains her to stop and watch you if you have a newspaper in your hands. It gets her/his attention. But it does not change the dog's behavior.
And when I try to use it for making her not run after things, she doesn't even notice me, the newspaper, or anything. Just the small animal running away from her. I want her to know she cannot chase ANYthing without my commanding it.
The newspaper will help you show dominance. After that it is annoying to the dog and it makes it look like you need something to control her. Of course, you don't. I am sure your Shanti would do anything for you if he knew what you wanted or if there was a good reason to do it --like a treat. No treats for bad behaviour. But you cannot be running after your dog with a newspaper or yelling No! all the time either. You need to make sure he does something good and knows that you will reward him.
You probably do that when he sits for you, so you know what I am talking about.
Abbi used to jump up on the counter when she was a puppy. One day I followed her around and scared her or told her "no!" every time she even tried to jump up towards the counter. Every once in a while she tries again and I tell her "no".
Then there was the barking. She use to bark at my kids. So every time she barked we would say "Speak!" (Digame!). She quit barking unless we said "Speak" because when she does we give her a good treat (peanut butter, fish, or something she likes). Now any of us can point at her and say speak. She is just so good at it.
A few months later we had to put Abbi outside because we had sprayed poison in the house and she kept licking the floors. And she started barking. So we said "Speak" right as she was barking. Then ran out and gave her a treat when she barked. Then we went in and she started barking again. So we said, "Quiet!" (Silencia!). She quit barking and we ran out and gave her a treat and hugs. Then we went in. And she barked. We waited and then said"Quiet!" When she quit barking we said Quiet again and ran out and gave her a treat.
After a day of this we quit giving her the treat for being quiet. Instead, if she barked again, I would just say "No!". Now she doesn't bark unless we leave her out all night. And she will not bark then if I correct her once (after she starts barking --I say "NO!") before I go to bed.
Point is, we do different things to "train" Abbi. If she's doing something we really like, she knows it because she gets praise and maybe a treat. If she does something we don't like we make a decision. Should we try to train her to do it on command? Or should we try just correcting her.
Usually the first thing you try is a simple "no" or correction with loud noise or a noisy newspaper. But if that doesn't work ... well try the if you cannot beat them join them school of thought (train her to do the bad thing -- at least you have control). And remember to try, try, and try again. It is hard to let the dog know exactly what you want in a way that he understands and you can relate.
Training is a tricky skill. You have to do what works best for your dog at the time.
And maybe its time to look into the Q collar. I am not that great at scheduled training sessions though. I would have to train myself first.
|Training the upright is always the hardest part. Being proactive and seeking out training methods is fantastic. Different methods work for
different people, but I commend you on your dedication to the issue. My maddie has never bitten a person either, but none the less, she has agression issues. The word agression carries such a negative meaning, and that isn't the entire scope of the word. Dogs can agressively play with their toys...they are so intense in the activity that it is difficult to get them to end it. "Agression" doesn't always have to be attacking someones leg or another dog...as I refer to it it is more the intensity level of the dog. There are many activities that people actually want these intense behavior to come out. I train my dog with a word ("Settle" or "easy) that ends this high level of intensity. That way in appropriate situations this intensity can be channeled appropriately. So know when it is appropriate for Maddie to chace something, I can let her do it, and end it any time I like because I am the one with the control words. Infact the control words work to end the whinning as well. I know she wants to chase EVERYTHING...but she is not the one in control (although she would love to be) and has to be respectful...hahaha what an evil thing I love it
The set up can vary with the Q collar, but initially there are 2 collars attached two two "leads". One "lead" typically longer than your average 6 foot leash (I use clothes line cut to varying lengths with the shortest being 10 ft.) is attached to a stationary object (be it a stake in the ground, a heavy weight that they can not pull, or any kind of post). This is necessay to use when first teaching a dog because you never want to let the dog see you struggle against it. If the dog is able to jump around you have to use a lot of your strength just trying to stop that. Holding the 2nd lead, you simply step backwards one step and pull the dog into the correction. The line attached to the stationary object does all the work.
Now for the weights....
In caese of agression and other more serious issues, 2 lines are not enough. The dog is not able to decide on its own to follow through on what is being asked. Interestingly enough, Pat the inventor of the Q collar, is working on a new invention the Q calmer. It's still in the begining stages, but it is simply a chain inside a heavy duty fabric that is worn like a necklace. It truely helps the dogs calm down. MAddie needs to wear 2 or them right now, but the extra weight (what can't be over 5 lbs total) helps her remain calm. It works in the same manner as all the heavy weights I talked about on a previous posting, but because of the thickness or something I really don't know, it produces the same effects. Of cource there are still times and certain circumstances where more weight would be warrented. In this case, the weight is attached to the Q collar with the line attached to the stationary object. It is used to lower the intensity level of the dog. Pat is constantly reevaluating her techniques and improving them. One of the main concerns with the weight is not everyone has the weights available in all situations. with the new Q calmer, it can go any where. It is still in the development stages, but I thought I would share it with you because the set up with it is similar to that oof the weight.
|I read about a similar device for children in the 80's. Actually in college in developmental psyche the idea was touched upon. Seems some children and most animals will clam down if they feel "held" or restrained a bit. But it has to be done in a non threatening way. So they made weighted vests and leggings for hyperactive kids. It gave them comfort and seemed to cal them down.
There's a lady who has a massage therapy for dogs who also came up with the same idea. Her way is to use scarves and towels to "tie" around the dog so that they feel pressure on all points without interfering with normal movement. I wish I remebered her name ...
I will look inot using the Q collar. For now though I decided to try to use some of the advice given in a manner that I could put to use immediately.
Like my dog, I am impatient.
So instead of trying to physically restrain Abbi I used the phrase "Come Back!" At first it was only when she went way out in front of me towards a cat (we have cats in every yard here). When she did not return to helling position, I knudged her with my foot on her rear. Boy did that get her attention. She came back and I told her how good she was. Before we started waliking I said, "Come back good girl." She looked at me and heeled better than ever. two blocks later she was in front of me and I said "Come Back." She did, but not all the way. So I said sit, which she did so well. I gave her hug and started feeling much better. We were getting somewhere and I hadn't pulled on her once. We went through these variations for another day.
Then I took her to pick up my kid at the elementary school. She was an angel. Actually herded the kids across for the crossing guard. I let them all pet her and told her how good she was! When I say herded, I mean she walked on their outside paramenter facing the cars at heel position. The drivers were just gawking.
She has been so good I am getting up to three mile walks in again! She only messes up when a cat or dog actually run up to her. And I can tell her no and come back, then sit and she will wait for me to get us out of whatever situation precipitates. You wouldn't believe her great behavior in the face of a doberman, a St Bernard, and a couple of cats this week. Others were actually asking where I had her trained.
I absolutely do not ever tighten up her leash. She has to respond to my verbal and hand commands or she is wrong. And she knows it!
I just needed to re-focus and remember not to physically fight her. I knew she would do it! I am still working on the stay command, which is where I will need something like the Q collar set up ...
My husband cannot believe the difference one week has made. I am so proud of Abbi and me!
|Note to Jessica Brink
You mention using weights with your dog. Backpacks are too bulky. Do you know of something that's not bulky for carrying weights? If so, could you give information about where you get it, etc.?
|I'm looking for something my dog can wear that will carry weights to give my dog more of a work out. Backpacks are too bulky. Do you know where I can find something less bulky that can carry weights?
Thanks for your help.
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