Double-team herding, etc.
On her own, Bella is fine in social situations. Together, they are a terror. But Mr Simon..he will find one dog to obsess over and not leave that dog alone no matter what signals the dog gives. And all his obedience training goes out the window.. he doesn't even recognize me, only the dog he has chosen to obsess over. He's not aggressive in the sense that he wants to bite the dog, he just wants to follow it. I put a call out to my trainer to come with me to observe the behavior to see if she can help me. The last few play dates I did with them was with my vet and a friend of hers with 3 other dogs. She actually suggested an ecollar for Simon, but I can't imagine doing that to him. Any suggestions? I would love to be able to take both dogs out to be social and enjoy them, but Mr Simon makes it almost impossible. He needs to get out more, but he is so obnoxious that I am asked to leave. He is a loving boy, not mean aggressive at all, but he intimidates other dogs. And the two of them together is horrible. Bella on her own is fine. Mary |
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| I am looking forward to the responses to your email. I too have this problem with Tiggy and Rastus (dalmatian). On her own Tiggy likes to run at other dogs and bark in the hopes that they will run so she can herd, ahem, chase them. But when I take Rastus as well, pack behaviour occurs and they are terrible and dalmos aren't even herding dogs.  On her own Tiggy will chase other dogs if they run, but she is more easily distracted and I can mostly get her to come back to me. But together NO HOPE. I am so far below the value of chasing together that I may as well not exist. They are deaf to me calling and Tiggy is deaf to her squeaky ball which is saying something as it usually has very high value. They are just like your two, they flank the dog one on either side and Tiggy barks in the poor creatures ear and then Rastus tries and usually succeeds in tripping it up. (Rastus has a truly awesome football manouvere for tripping another dog without going down himself  )So far my only solution has been to walk them separately, to walk them really early or late when we are almost guaranteed not to meet other dogs or as a last resort to walk them with my DH in less popular dog areas so that we can each grab a dog and leash them as soon as we spot another dog on the horizon. Sorry I can't help more. As I said I'll be interested to see input from others. |
| ecollar is a good idea. No, not set so high it shocks their socks off. More like a buzz, vibrating cell phone next to their ear so they are momentarily distracted, their brain plugs back in, and you can get your message to them. Most ecollars have a wide variety of settings, you want one that just catches their attention. |
| i too have this problem i use to take my boys to the dog park and they start in with one dog and do just what your dud, but alone they are fine.. i had to stop going sadly cause duffy kept getting attacked for no reason still trying to figure it out many dogs just don't like him but dreamer all love him weird ! |
| The best bet is to avoid that situation when you know you have no control. All it does it teach your dog they can ignore you and get away with it. That is something I always avoid if at all possible. You NEVER want your dog to think a command is optional. If they are out of control and you can't recall them back (if you know they will ignore you), it's best not to say anything. However, I am on them like NOW and the out of control behavior stops. This can happen once by accident (that they are out of control), but any more than once is YOUR fault - as you know what is going to happen and you do it anyway. If you know they are bad when loose together, don't do it - ever - until you have worked through it with training. You are just reinforcing a behavior. (The goal is to reinforce GOOD behaviors!  )Chewie LOVES to do it. If I just let him run with a group of dogs, he likes nothing better than to herd and corral a dog. But, I have a super strong "leave it" command, and he knows I mean it and it is never optional. He can play all he wants, but when he starts to get that mentality, he gets a verbal...and 99% of the time it works. But that 1% of the time he doesn't, I am right there stopping him...and he is really good for a really long time after that.....  And I had the double teaming with Chewie and Simon together...I super policed them, but it was of course more difficult than just one dog. And these are both very well obedience trained dogs, who both are very in tuned to me. So if we had problems, I am sure others are having a much more difficult time. I would stop bringing 2 dogs out together until you are doing very well with just a verbal command to stop with each dog. And beware that if you do bring 2, and they get out of hand, you have set them each back in their belief in you as the boss.  |
| I am not an expert like Dawn with her experience, but able to speak as someone new to dog training, I can echo what Dawn said,I found it worked really well to really get in there and come down hard when Mady was refusing the recall at the dog park for instance. I would get a hold of her, march her to a chain link fence, tie her to it and make her sit, then turn my back on her and ignore her for a good 15 minutes. I had to do this twice in two different dog parks and oh boy she was on her best behaviour for several weeks after! I always follow through on my commands too. |
| My two males do the same thing. They usually will take off after a dog if one breaks into a run chasing a ball or something. Toby, the youngest and fastest of my two OES will head the other dog into Charlie who is flanking on the other side. Once they have him stopped with a bark or a few nips at the heel, all of the dogs stand around looking around bewildered while the ball that was being chased is forgotten. Then Charlie and Toby will usually bring the other dog back to to the pack he ran from until the next breakaway. They have never been trained to herd— it's all instinct. I know the herding is annoying to other dog owners who maybe came to the park just to exercise their dogs. Some owners, the knowledgeable ones, will recognize that it is just a herding dog doing what comes naturally, but other owners think it is aggression and get upset. I quit going to dog parks for this reason and because sometimes there are truly aggressive dogs there with owners who can't or won't control them. |
| I have completely stopped taking both of them to the dog park together for awhile. I can take Bella, and though she does sometimes still gets into the herding mode, I have great recall with her and 99% of the time she will come back to me. She also has a great "leave it" and totally responds when it is just her with me. I was just hoping that in a smaller group, the play date I had with the 3 other dogs, I would have more control. And I did, actually. If one of them, mostly Simon, started getting out of control, he immediately went on the leash and lost his freedom. That did seem to help a lot. It is Simon I have the most problem with. Then, of course, when together they feed off each other. I've been really working hard with Simon on "leave it" with the cats and we have almost completely conquered his chasing of the cats here at home. The kitties are happy to be able to walk through the house now and crawl up onto the chair for a snooze without him chasing him off! lol. I guess I just need to take him out by himself and take your suggestions to super police him and correct his behavior immediately. We've done a little of that...like leave immediately when he gets out of control, but evidently not nearly enough. I like the suggestions of tying him up to the fence and ignoring him. Am still considering the ecollar, and yes, Susan, only enough to get his attention. But also using a long line now to reinforce his recall. I think we'll try just hanging out near the dog park but not in it for awhile, working on his recall. Appreciate all your suggestions. We just have to keep working at it. My hope is to get them to the point where I can take them out together. Mary |
| Have you thought about whistle training? I found a short sharp whistle works better then your voice because if your feeling nervous or (oh i will call you but you wont come back feeling) the doggy will pick up on this lol. You need an awesome treat to do this something fantastic they cant resist and only use it for the whistle. I have the whistle on me and whistle ramdomly through the day and when she/he comes to you reward them and they soon get it. They try it in the garden and build it up from there. Hope this helps.  |
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