Rudy's issues
I spoke with our vet (our favourite one...he's hard to book with but since it's spring break I was able to swing it) about Rudy. This is really Hudson's life now...he gets a car ride and a visit with his favourite person in the whole world and all we do is talk about his goofball brother's issues. I haven't shared all of Rudy's struggles here, but he still has a lot of issues. He paces a fair bit, goes nuts when he sees something out the window, and still hasn't gotten over his other dog aggression on leash, despite more than a thousand dollars one on one with a behaviourist. He's also a crazy anxious chewer...and swallower, as his October emergency sock removal surgery proved. This weekend while on a walk he got out of his collar (it broke partially) and "attacked" a pair of chocolate labradoodles. We were (still are) horrified. The good news, if you can count it as good, is that while he scared the pants off the owner (and who wouldn't be horrified) when he got to the two very calm dogs he didn't bite. He snarled and barked on the way, but once there he actually wanted to play. That is, until my hubby grabbed his regular collar (he had both on thank goodness) and then the act of pulling him back set him off again. In a way, it's almost a glimmer of hope I guess. But we're still horrified it happened nonetheless. He also walks across us all the time when he paces, and the paw batting is not really abating much. I try to laugh when I tell the story but last week I awoke in the wee hours of the morning because Rudy was pacing on the bed (not my favourite aspect of his personality) and he stepped on my eyeball. Yes, toenail hit squishy white part...ick. Luckily aside from an adrenaline rush, a quick leap out of bed, and about a half hour of mild pain the eye is fine. I kind of unloaded on our vet. (He's one of those people you just wished lived with you, because you know that if he did he'd make everything okay.) And he wants to see Rudy to try some meds (I don't remember the name). He said they're like ADHD meds for dogs and that they don't tranquilize they reduce anxiety. It would take some time to gradually build up, and we'd keep him on them for six months to a year, gradually weaning him off. He said that they'd help Rudy to live in a calmer, relaxed state and that then when we work with him and train him he'd have a much better chance of changing his behaviour permanently. And once he's used to living a calmer life the gradual reduction and then removal of the meds should go unnoticed. He was clear that it wouldn't fix his behaviour. We'll still have to do the work with him, but that it might help him to benefit from all that we've been doing (and are committed to continuing). I wish I could remember the name of the medication...all I'm getting is the letter C at the start. We have an appointment later in April (I'm back at work and it's hard to get a time I can make). He's also going to do a baseline x ray of Rudy's hips (always a good idea, not because of anything in particular), and we'll start him on the meds once he's been checked over. Anyone had any experience with this sort of medication? Thoughts and suggestions are welcomed. I certainly didn't want to use meds on Rudy, but after a year of some really intensive stuff with him, I just think this is really worth a shot. |
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Just want to say I think it IS really good that Rudy didn't actually attack those dogs, he was just being very vocal. I hope the meds do help, Rudy is still really young, I can see him overcoming those issues especially with the level of effort, care and commitment you're willing to give. Good luck!  |
 Tracie, none of us likes to use medication but sometimes is necessary. Aside from your own person struggles with Rudy's out of control behavior at times, one question to ask is whether you think Rudy is happy being this way. I doubt that he is. I am 100% behind using medications to help with behavior problems especially when training alone has failed to correct the challenges. This drug plus training may help him to get to where he needs to be mentally and help him with self-control. Quote: I wish I could remember the name of the medication...all I'm getting is the letter C at the start. Thinking the drug might be Clomicalm or clomipramine (generic I think). http://www.clomicalm.novartis.us but there could be another "c" drug.  Panda was on it for a year... we were able to use 1/2 the dose but if I had to do it again, I'd probably use the full dosage. She knew no limits, was destructive due to separation anxiety... I believe she was suffering emotionally. Medications can help reduce this but as your vet said, it will not cure it. I think it gave Panda time to learn to trust... that we would come back to her, that just because a door was shut didn't mean we had left her. Hoping you'll see some good results!  |
| Traci, I know nothing of the medications but think if it can make a difference for Rudy and also for you it would really be worth trying. |
| We had problems with our kitty showing terrible aggression to his housemates, both canine and feline, after years of living peacefully together. We tried everything, and finally put him on some anti-anxiety meds (amitriptyline for him). We monitored him closely - I didn't want a drugged-out furbaby! - and I have to say that he was still our Parker. Just a calmer, more amenable Parker. And we weaned him off the meds after about a year, which gave us time to resolve his underlying issues. Look at this as a tool to be used in the short-term while you all work toward your long-term goal. Monitor him closely with your vet and your trainer, and hopefully this will give both you and him enough time to calmly address his issues successfully.Good luck, and hang in there! |
| Tracie, Coz, my dog with issues was on clomipramine from about 2 years to 5 years old. And, although I did not like having to give him meds everyday, I did see an improvement in the way he reacted to the world around him. For lack of better wording, it took the edge off of his temperament issues. He was smoother. In a way, it looked like he was able to understand the things I was trying to teach him. He was more focused on me when he became 'wild'..and I was able to talk him through, with calming words, to get him to settle. MY big concern before using this med, was he was not enjoying his life. HOW could he??? He was always pacing, barking, 'frazzled'...I needed to find something to help him relax and just enjoy~~ And the meds helped him do this. When he was a little over 5 years old, I decided, with my vet's permission to take him off the meds. I wanted to see what he would do and how he would act without his crutch. To my surprise his behavior did not get worse. He has been off the meds for about 3 years now, and I can honestly say, he is content and happy. I know his limitations and I love and accept him for who he is..he will never be as joyful as Heart or Pearl,,,,,but he is not as miserable and unsettled as he was before~~ If, in the future he begins to get frazzled again, I would not hesitate to get him on meds again. Please keep us posted ~~ |
| Traci, I have no advice, but just want to wish you the best on whatever course you choose. Bless you for taking such good care of Rudy and believing in him. He's a lucky boy!! |
| Tracie, I echo what the others here have said. It sounds like Rudy is suffering with terrible anxiety, and he needs to be in a calmer state to even get the point where behavior modification and training would work. I would try the meds in a heartbeat. You are not trying to mask a problem or make a quick fix by trying an anti-anxiety med. You are using a tool to help Rudy become a more stable, and less anxious pup. Oscar takes amitriptyline to help with the stress component of his IBD. I have not noticed ANY difference in his behavior, though his digestive system has stayed on a much more even keel since starting this medication. From everyone's reponses here, sounds like the clomipramine is the way to go, and probably the "c" drug your vet recommended. Please keep us posted. I am sorry that you are all going through this. Laurie and Oscar |
| I really want to thank all of you for your kind words and the stories you've shared. I'm reading them all with tears in my eyes. We've worked hard with Rudy and loved him to pieces, and will continue to do so his whole life, but we were getting really worried about his progress. I know that if the vet says that this is a good thing to try, then it's definitely worth it. I trust our vet completely. I was feeling like trying medication was like giving up on him. Logically I know it isn't, but in my heart it felt like we would be admitting he couldn't get better on his own. I was more stressed about that aspect than about the medication itself. He has made a lot of progress here. It took nearly a year to housebreak him, but he's now gone three and a half months without an accident. And if he has one tomorrow, it's still no big deal. We celebrated the first time we saw him sleep. It took months. Prior to that I'm sure he napped in his crate during the day when we were at work, but when we were home he kept his eyes on us all the time. At least a month after that we first saw him dream. I think it took a while to relax enough to really sleep. We celebrated his first nap in the hall (outside of the room where we were, but with a clear view still) and then the day we were in the tv room and he napped on the bed, not far away, but out of sight. He paces a lot less now, but it's stil an issue. And when you compare his demeanor to Hudson's it's still night and day. Today was a bad day for me personally. After the vet appointment, I was driving to a doctor's appointment, and the car I have loved dearly for the last twenty years appears to have a potentially life ending problem. I know most would say it's just a car, but I am very, very attached, and any car that would be one hundred percent reliable for twenty years deserves that. At the doctor's appointment I got some concerning (but not yet panic worthy) news, and am now scheduled for a whole bunch of tests...which are being rushed, which will mean lots of time off from school next week, which always stresses me out and the kids. I know it's my health, and it's important to take the time, but it is just adding to my stress. Your support really, really helped today. Thank you all. Here's hoping that Rudy's appointment on the 26th comes quickly. |
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| Why do things come in 3's. I hope everything works out well. Just thought I'd chime in with my experience with clomicalm. Quite some years ago I bought a second siamese kitten thinking that my first would like a friend. Unfortunately the second kitten was extremely anxious and didn't cope well with the confidence of my first cat so my Mom took her to live with her. It helped but Missy was still very anxious and was having repeated bladder infections so both my vet and my Mom's vet suggested clomicalm. Apparently it helps relax irritable, reactive bladder muscles too. (Made me wonder about Rudy's difficulty with bladder control) It made a huge difference. We kept her on clomicalm for quite a few months and then weaned her off it. For 2 more Christmas holidays she went back on it as she couldn't cope with family home to visit but we haven't used it for about 5 years now. Missy is still a very nervous cat but she has her routinue now and is coping really well. Much like Val's description of Coz. It's probably worth mentioning that it took a few days to get the dose right. At first Missy was a little bombed out by it but we reduced the dose slightly and then over the next couple of days her system seemed to adjust and she was able to relax and sleep a lot. Which is what a normal, happy cat does. Good luck, I hope it is helpful. |
| I think you should put the thought that "medication means giving up" straight out of your head!!! Like someone with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder or diabetes. Medication too often gets a bum rap, but it can be an essential measure in turning someone's (or somedog's) life around! You had and will have all the non-medication aspects very well covered. The medication might be filling that last gap. So DON'T feel even a teensy bit bad! Take this as potentially great opportunity to help Rudy have the life he deserves!!! |
| I can't offer any advice or stories (everyone else has great ones though!), but just wanted to show my support. You have done a tremendous job on helping Rudy, a dog that many after seeing his issues would refuse to keep. It's obvious you love him very much, and through his successes, that he loves you very much as well. Big to you, you'll make the right decisions for him. |
| I hope that all goes well with Rudy AND with you. As for your car, I can understand being sentimental about that-you spend time, go on adventures in your car so it would be full of memories. |
| Special thoughts and prayers for you. A tough day! |
| I just want to add my two cents. What you have gone thru, first to get Rudy, and then his "issues" and training and all you have done for and with him are by far, a lot more then some people would have done. That being said, I have learned alot about dogs not living well in their own skins. Anxiety can cause horrible problems around the house and problems for you and the dog. If medication can help I would go for it in a minute. Its a medical problem and if there is medicine that can help wouldn't you be willing to try it for yourself? My hat is off to you for going above and beyond what needs to be done to take care of and love this dog. |
| I just wanted to update you guys on one of my comments from yesterday. It was: He has made a lot of progress here. It took nearly a year to housebreak him, but he's now gone three and a half months without an accident. And if he has one tomorrow, it's still no big deal. So of course, today, while I was playing the piano in the livingroom, he POOPED right beside me. In his defense, I didn't realize that my hubby hadn't let him out after breakfast (I was still sleeping), and so I didn't let him out when I got up, and he was restless, but he is always restless, and I wasn't paying attention and all...so it was really, totally, and completely MY fault and not his. But sheesh, I totally jinxed the poor guy by writing that yesterday! What was I thinking?????    |
| Phew...Tracie It is a hard road....... I feel your pain! I have Devyn a 7 y/o sheepie who is a NUT! We have had her on Xanax, clomicalm, prozac...nothing has helped  I have taken her to training, she does good sometimes, if she is in a good mood. She has been through pre novice clases but, it is always hit or miss.... I have had to leave class a few times when she has been a lunging fool. Good Luck....is he in obedience training? Sometimes it helps...patience is the key....if you find some, send me a little too! |
| Rudy's currently not in anything. We had one on one with a behaviourist that did seem to help some, but the two visits we tried to obedience made him insane. The behaviourist actually suggested we stay out of obedience as long as he was dog aggressive, which worked out well for us as we'd been asked not to go back with him anymore. Hudson, our stubborn, but won't listen to us social butterfly continued to go through eight full sets of obedience classes (eight per set). He loved it, and it was a great outing for him, but he is still his own dog who answers to no one (but in a most good natured sort of way). If I find the holy grail of dog aggressive dog training I will bottle it and make a fortune, but since you asked first, I'll send you the first case I mass produce for free! |
| Tracie - I'm with your vet. The right meds can give you the foot in the door so to speak to be able effectively work with the dog. My own vet who kindly volunteers her services for local OES rescue has presecribed anti-anxiety meds for several of our rescue dogs, including mine, though in her case she discontined whatever she was trying out on her because she felt it wasn't working. But if we could find something that would work with her I'd put her on it in a heart beat. From what you describe I don't know that I'd classify him as dog aggressive. Many over the top anxious dogs have no concept of/or at least can't remain calm enough to exhibit appropriate canine social skills. My rescue can be relentless with the dogs she lives with, but ignores all others (for which I am grateful) Her latest trick instead is to charge people. She's afraid of most people and unfortunately learned that charging them was an option. I think it makes her feel she has some "control" over the situation. I've worked with her for two years now and what strikes me is that everytime I make progress in one area, her anxiety causes "leaky" behavior in another. I.e. her problematic behavior simply shifts and takes on another form. Painful to live with, but painful too, I think, for her to live in her own skin. It's as if her anxiety has to express itself or she'll explode (well, not literally, of course) If I could find a medication that worked she'd be on it in a heartbeat, just like I'd treat any other health problem if treatment was an option. Living like this can't be good for her. I've come to believe, since this isn't uncommon in our breed, that there is a strong genetic component, and to suspect that some day we will understand the dynamics and discover that it is most likely some kind of chemical imbalance, probably hormonal. Some of these dogs are concurrently hypothyroid and improve on those meds, but by no means all. It makes sense to me that you would treat a chemical imbalance with chemicals, i.e. meds. Some day hopefully we'll have a better approach than anti-anxiety meds amd can treat the actual hormonal imbalance, if that is indeed the case. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of research into health problems that manifest themselves as behavioral problems, probably in part because it's much more difficult to get a reliable diagnosis. But that is starting to change. On the offchance that we may some day be able to add OES to one of these studies, Dazz has donated DNA to the CHIC DNA database. In the mean time you've inspired me to go back to my vet and try a medical approach again. As it stands we're just making each other miserable and neither one of us should have to live like that. She sooo wants to be good. Her body and mind just won't relax enough to make that happen. That conflict alone has got to be painful. Good luck with your boy and please keep us posted, and especially if you find anything that works for you. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Unfortunately there isn't a lot of research into health problems that manifest themselves as behavioral problems, probably in part because it's much more difficult to get a reliable diagnosis. But that is starting to change. On the offchance that we may some day be able to add OES to one of these studies, Dazz has donated DNA to the CHIC DNA database. In the mean time you've inspired me to go back to my vet and try a medical approach again. As it stands we're just making each other miserable and neither one of us should have to live like that. She sooo wants to be good. Her body and mind just won't relax enough to make that happen. That conflict alone has got to be painful. Good luck with your boy and please keep us posted, and especially if you find anything that works for you. Kristine I never really looked at it that way Kristine...that mad me feel very awful for my two crazy ones...I didn't even get started on Pancake!  Pancake is one of those fosters that people try really hard not to hang up on me when I start telling her issues...  |
| I have Molly She was an owner surrender at age two I know why she was surrendered She is NUTS but lovable. We did the training (Now it took her 6 mos before she stopped pacing) and yes she stands on us often. One of the behavorilist trainers said she was not comfortable with herself, she had an anxiety bark (well hello I knew that) we discussed with our vet and started her on clomipamine 25 my twice a day Molly is still crazy but feels better about herself and is not so anxious This medication is used for anxiety (in humans too) There is nothing wrong with dogs or humans taking medication. I say try it |
| Our thoughts are with you. Rudy is so very glad to have you guys in his life. Someone who isn't going to give up on him no matter what. Something we always tell Mattie is Mommies and Daddies don't leave there babies. Hugs to you guys Lisa Frankie and Mattie |
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