Joey Miller of Cotton Dogs
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| Welcome back!!
You need to start PMing some of us who were worried about whether or not you were still on this Earth! |
Hey Girl! Yes, still here. You haven't had a get together without me, have you, hmmm?  I promise I won't break anything this time. 
I have much to bring everyone up to date. Will post a picture of my ever growing furry family. The addition of Winston and Foxey are the only real important changes. We'll catch up soon! |
No get togethers without you but I think we may need to have another one this spring. I have new glasses for you to use; they are plastic and have a lid!  |
| talk about being missing Maximm...........check your inbox~~ |
| I want to know about him too!!!! |
| My 13 month old OES(Ripley) is one of Joey's puppies. We couldn't be happier with her. She has had no health issues. Prelim of hips was good/excellent.My vet stated if we OFAed her at two they'd be excellent. She has a great temperament and is smart as can be. Joey's description of Meadow, my dog's dam is the perfect description of her offspring also.
Joey is a hobby breeder. That said, let me say she does everything right. Everything she has written on her web site I have found to be true. She truly cares,and does 110% for her dogs and the puppies she raises. We weren't able to visit Joey before we made a committment to a puppy. Joey sent extra video's of Ripley to us. She was very open and honest with all my endless questions. The sale was dependent on my being able to temperament test the puppy when we went to get her. Joey had no problem with this. I would get another puppy from Joey without hesitation, and readily recommend her to anyone who wants an OES for their family.  |
| Thank you for posting a response. Thanks also to those that have sent me a PM.
Dee |
| ^^
So welcome to the board! Kinda nice you found this thread so soon after the question was asked. Good for the original poster. Hope you join the board to join in discussions outside of the breeder since I know how much of a challenge a puppy can be!!! By doing 110% for their dogs, does that mean they get all the necessary/recommended tests before breeding? That's one of the things I've learned to ask now, and I hit myself every time I look at my "hobby breeder dog" who doesn't look anything like my dog from a reputable breeder. I'll never go that route again. I also found most hobby breeders don't even know what tests, etc they should have done to increase their odds of having healthy dogs. My maltese was also from a hobby breeder and she was the sweetest person in the world!!! "MEANT WELL" and wanted the best for her dogs but she could never tell me how her dogs were doing [health wise] past those first few years of life. The time most owners lose contact with their breeders. She thought she was a good breeder and let me tell you... my maltese had a lot of health problems ...ones you'd never know of until she was a little older. |
| My "hobby breeder" stopped answering my emails the minute my check cleared. I adore my dogs, but I'd be lying if I said we haven't had a world of issues regarding health and temperment to work through. I wouldn't trade my girls in for anything, but I wouldn't go back to my "hobby breeder" again either. |
| Hi Joahaeyo,
Nothing is ever perfect, whether breeding dogs or life. Professional breeders can do everything right and still come up with health or temperament problems in a litter. It's buyer beware in every instance. Go to Joey's website and read it. She's covered a lot of what you were concerned with. I have had 30 years of experience with training and dog rescue. My breed of choice for 20 years was working line GSD. The last dog I bought, before my OES puppy was from a "very reputable" GSD breeder. I paid a lot of money and had to put the dog down at the age of 3years from severe systemic lupus. 20/20 hindsight I think the breeder knew it was in his lines. For the last 15 years all my dogs have been rescue. My OES was the first puppy that we've bought since then. I did as much research as I needed to feel comfortable. Since I have been actively involved with Delta society, doing pet therapy with my dogs for the last 10yrs, I had very specific requirements for my new OES puppy and Ripley has met or exceeded all of my expectations. She will be getting her Delta certification this May. |
| With all the wonderful OESCA Breeders in Texas, why on earth would you go to someone that was a 'hobby' breeder?? In other terms she is a BACK YARD BREEDER.
She has been asked to join OESCA a number of times, declines. She also does not show her dogs, so it is only HER judgement that the dogs are of breeding quality. Good luck with your dog......... when something comes up health wise remember the OES.ORG people are the ones that will be here for you......... |
| what happened to open mindedness.
Years ago,an old trainer told me the only truly good dog is one that was titled from and back. I still believe this. I wasn't looking for a show dog,most people aren't. I am very comfortable with my knowledge base and my decisions. I do not expect problems with my dog. Someone asked about anyone's experience with Joey and I responded.I realize you are a "professional breeder" but your viewpoint just like mine is not the only one. Not everyone likes to belong to large organizations,and can do quite well without them  |
| People are open minded, but they also want to help protect others from being taken advantage of by less than scrupulous breeders. And people can be as nice as you hope them to be, but unfortunately the only way to tell a breeder that breeds truly healthy, and correct to standard dogs is for them to register and show their dogs. That means that a judge has evaluated their dogs for the qualities that the breed should have. Its also necessary to have the proper health tests done with certificates provided. You can feed your dog all organic diets and care for them in a fabulous fashion, but if there is hip dysplasia in the line, or any other genetic issues, it won't matter how kind you are to your dogs.
This breeder could be a VERY nice person, and may have dogs that seem lovely. But without the proper health checks all of their dogs could suffer from genetic disorders at some point down the road. And that means big vet bills and broken hearts. No, there's no guarantee in life that everything is going to work out fine, but why wouldn't you stack the deck in your favor by going with a reputable breeder that does all the health checks and shows their dogs, proving them to be excellent examples of what our chosen breed can achieve? If this breeder really wants to do whats best by the breed, it would be a simple thing for them to get the health certificates done. So why don't they? I can understand how difficult showing can be, and how expensive and time consuming; but health certs get done (correct me if I'm wrong) once in a dog's lifetime. So its not time consuming, and isn't it worth the expense to know for sure that the dogs you are breeding are free from disease? |
| just to add; not everyone is a "professional breeder". My mom bred sheepdogs when I was a kid. She only had the one litter, and never did show our dogs. But she did all the health checks and purchased as her breeder a dog from a Championship line. One of the pups she reared went on to be a show dog, to win its own championship, and be the founder dog of a kennel that did pretty well. I'm not down on "hobby breeding" or back yard breeding as some might be, but I do feel that it doesn't exempt the person from the responsibility of breeding quality dogs. Whether you plan to show or not, breed or not; you should be sure that the dogs you are putting in peoples homes, to share their lives with them and to love them and in turn be loved, these dogs should be checked for the health issues that our breed frequently suffers from. How else will we be able to breed these issues OUT of our lines if we don't know they are there to begin with? |
| Joey has certified her dogs. Just because a dog wins in a show ring,doesn't mean it has a good temperament. My comment a good dog is titled on both ends.
I come from the obedience world,so bear with me I've seen lots of show dogs and I'm not talking OES that I won't have any thing to do with.Confirmation is just that looks, Line breeding and in breeding to get a certain look that is popular as caused alot of problems in a lot of breeds. Again I was just responding to a question about a breeder that I had knowlege of. Not all hobby breeders are bad not all professional breeders are good. It is anyones responsiblity to research any breed or breeder they wish to get a dog from.If one doesn't want to do this its always buyer beware. I think a have a very nice dog.The most important things to me were health and temperament.Joey was very open with me with any problems she has had with any of her puppies.None of them were her fault. |
furry and four paws wrote: Just because a dog wins in a show ring,doesn't mean it has a good temperament. My comment a good dog is titled on both ends.
I come from the obedience world,so bear with me I've seen lots of show dogs and I'm not talking OES that I won't have any thing to do with.Confirmation is just that looks, Line breeding and in breeding to get a certain look that is popular as caused alot of problems in a lot of breeds. The most important things to me were health and temperament.Joey was very open with me with any problems she has had with any of her puppies.None of them were her fault. A conformation dog needs to have a good temperment period. It can't fake a good temperment for the 12-18 months it sometimes takes to finish it's AKC Championship. I am considered a reputable breeder & I also put titles on both ends of some of my dogs. As for conformation is just "looks".... Not true. A reputable breeder breeds to the standard. This means at times they must go out to other lines to breed (called outcrossing) to bring in things to improve their lines. Then they need to line breed to cement into their breeding program what they went out to get. It's not done "just for looks". It is done to better the breed. To breed a dog closer to the standard that can go out into the field & do what it was bred to do. If you don't enter you dogs in conformation competition or test them for herding instinct there is no way you can tell if your line is moving towards this goal. And certifications (hips, eyes, thyroid etc.) are tests that a good reputable breeder spends hard earned money on in order to try to breed the healthiest dogs possible. I am happy to hear that your breeder was open with you on any problems she had with her puppies. But to say none of them were her fault............well, all I can say is "it takes 2 to tango". Some combinations work....others look good on paper but reality is a whole 'nother ballgame.  |
But meanwhile 4 Paws, welcome to the forum. Other than this topic (and maybe a couple others), you will really enjoy being a member. Not all topics are as spirited as this one (except tails vs bob and tied tubes  ) |
Sheepdogma wrote: Not all topics are as spirited as this one (except tails vs bob and tied tubes
)That is completely true! Avoid these subjects and it will be much more fun!!! Welcome; and I hope you didn't take my responses as criticisms. There are a few things we get passionate about here; and I certainly didn't mean to come across as rude!!! |
furry and four paws wrote: I think a have a very nice dog.The most important things to me were health and temperament.
I am not happy with our breed standard when it comes to temperament. I wish it to be more detailed as I also believe it is one of the most important aspects of any dog, most especially such a large breed as the OES. |
Ron wrote: furry and four paws wrote: I think a have a very nice dog.The most important things to me were health and temperament. I am not happy with our breed standard when it comes to temperament. I wish it to be more detailed as I also believe it is one of the most important aspects of any dog, most especially such a large breed as the OES. The interesting thing, if you go back and read the development of the breed standard in the US (the US development handily online at the moment, I hope they keep it there http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... andard.htm ) is that early versions had no mention of temperament, period. Perhaps the horrible temperaments of the 60s and 70s, especially, even in many show lines, helped spur the addition of a description of proper OES temperament. As it stands today from the revised breed standard of 1990: Temperament An adaptable, intelligent dog of even disposition, with no sign of aggression, shyness or nervousness. Frankly, I think that sums up correct breed temperament very nicely. The show line temperaments of today are much, much improved overall. The casually bred OES are a different story. But if a breeder doesn't bother to read the breed standard to begin with, why would we think they would care about appropriate temperament or think it should apply to their dogs anyway? Kristine |
| ^^^
And let's not forget, the OES is a medium breed according to the standard. |
Mad Dog wrote: . Perhaps the horrible temperaments of the 60s and 70s, especially, even in many show lines, helped spur the addition of a description of proper OES temperament. As it stands today from the revised breed standard of 1990:
Temperament An adaptable, intelligent dog of even disposition, with no sign of aggression, shyness or nervousness. Frankly, I think that sums up correct breed temperament very nicely. Kristine This is the first that I have heard of the temperament issue for that time period! It really makes me think back to when my mother bred her first litter. One of the dogs was sweet as could be, and then for no reason at all would turn on you and would bite. She bit my younger sister twice. The other two pups ( a very small litter; the dam was really too old to be having a first litter) were lovely; and my father kept one until she died of old age. That dog never had any temperament problems, and neither did the one my mother sold, to my knowledge. |
| It is my understanding that back in the 70's there were a lot of temperment issues. Mostly due to the large number of OES being produced as fast as possible to fill the demand due to the Shaggy Dog movies & PLease Don't Eat the Daisies. I would assume that most of these were produced by BYBs trying to turn a buck at the time. Not to say it couldn't have happened with some reputable kennels too. I aquired my 1st OES in 1985. Every one I've had has been extremely sweet as far a temperment goes. Some more laid back than others & some more dominant than others. But dominance isn't necessarily a bad temperment issue. There are just some dogs that tend to be "the lead of the pack". They still should realize their human is at least 1 notch above them & be dependable as far a temperment goes. Even my girl that was more dominant never showed any tendancies of biting humans or other dogs. I do remember when I used to walk dogs several years ago having people stop me & comment "I had one of these when I was growing up. Cutest dog there ever was but boy could it be mean". So it must have happened back in the 60's-70's as these comments were made to me in the mid-90's. |
| Actually Marilyn you may have been lucky. Looking back at old OES Times it seems the problem is well documented and seems to have been throughout all the lines to some degree. There are some known show lines that go back to problematic temperments from what I have read.
I also often hear of people who had OES that bit them as children - of course some children might deserve such treatment |
kerry wrote: I also often hear of people who had OES that bit them as children - of course some children might deserve such treatment SEE; that's what I thought! My sister was always a precocious child!
So here is an awkward question; what do you do with a pup that has temperament issues (i.e. biting small children) in the 1970's? My parents' vet recommended euthanizing the dog; which they did. This NEVER sat well with me, especially now that I have had my own experience with training dogs that were mistaken for "aggressive". My mother always defended her actions. saying these were traits that they didn't want to remain in the line, and they felt they couldn't risk spaying and homing the dog in case it bit someone else down the road. Were there no other option in the 70's? |
Darth Snuggle wrote: kerry wrote: I also often hear of people who had OES that bit them as children - of course some children might deserve such treatment SEE; that's what I thought! My sister was always a precocious child! So here is an awkward question; what do you do with a pup that has temperament issues (i.e. biting small children) in the 1970's? My parents' vet recommended euthanizing the dog; which they did. This NEVER sat well with me, especially now that I have had my own experience with training dogs that were mistaken for "aggressive". My mother always defended her actions. saying these were traits that they didn't want to remain in the line, and they felt they couldn't risk spaying and homing the dog in case it bit someone else down the road. Were there no other option in the 70's? Depends on the aggression issues. You never know and there are reasons not to second guess nearly 40 years later. |
| Honestly, your mother has my respect. She did the difficult but right thing for the right reasons.
Your girls were fighting with each other, not nailing you, right? Dog aggression is different and often managable depending on degree (what you had was sibling rivalry, really, as I recall). I know one breeder who when starting out in the 70s realized she was producing unacceptable temperaments. She euthanized some of her OES, desexed and placed those who could safely be placed and started over. I'm sure it wasn't an easy thing to do, but, again, it was the right thing to do. Kristine |
Darth Snuggle wrote: So here is an awkward question; what do you do with a pup that has temperament issues (i.e. biting small children) in the 1970's? My parents' vet recommended euthanizing the dog; which they did. This NEVER sat well with me, especially now that I have had my own experience with training dogs that were mistaken for "aggressive". My mother always defended her actions. saying these were traits that they didn't want to remain in the line, and they felt they couldn't risk spaying and homing the dog in case it bit someone else down the road. Were there no other option in the 70's?
Back then society wasn't such a "disposable" society as it is today but I also think that most people never considered spending money or time to "retrain" dogs. Back then I remember even my own parents saying "it's only a dog". Of coure they never had a purebred nor a dog they ever paid any money for either. Remember, they grew up thru the Depression. I don't know what I'd do if I had a dog that would bite. But I do know that I consider that an unacceptable behavior. I'd never place a dog that was a known biter. I wouldn't want anyone else to have to deal with it. It takes a lot of patience & consistency to live with a dog like that. You'd have to be a step ahead of them everyday for the rest of their lives. |
| When I was a child my mother taught me to play nice with the other children in the sand box, especially the new kids. To put it in dog training language, don't play bow to me after you've growled, snapped, and peed down my leg
I am not an uneducated, impulse "cute" pet buyer. I am well aware of the Texas breeders on the OES web site. I did my research and made my informed decision to go with Joey of Cotton Dogs. I am still extremely happy with that decision. Why, Ali, would I come to you for help after your nasty and uninformed comments. As I stated prior, I have over 30 years experience in the dog world. I have work with, trained and been friends with comformation, obedience and working dog breeders. San Antonio is home to the US military breeding and training center for its working dogs. I've attended untold dog shows. San Antonio yearly hosts one of the largests in the country. I stand by what I said. I've watched some beautiful comformation champions in the ring that I won't dare put my hand near in the staging area. Yes, give me a dog with the minimum of intelligence that's not an outright "Cujo" and I can teach him to stack, prance the ring and not bite the judges hand. Take that animal off lead and let me see it interact with people and do the things it was bred to do and then I'll tell you that you have a champion. It is my personal opinion that a comformation championship does not make the best and only dog that should be bred. Comformation is subjective to taste. If I'm wrong, why do dogs of today not quite look like those of the 1960. The 60's dogs don't quite match those of the 1900s. Why is there now an English and American Cocker Spaniel, an American and European Golden Retriever and two separate German Shepherd types. I travel frequently in Europe. The EU has gotten smart and banned cropping and docking and yet they still have dogs winning championships. One of the prettiest things I saw last August in St. Petersburg was a proud and beautiful male OES prancing down the boulevard, his tail like a flag behind him. For me, as I stated, early health and temperament is of prime importance. My dogs are working therapy dogs. I need them healthy calm and smart. I'm not saying some comformation breeders don't work hard to have the whole package. I totally commend those that do. Joey's decision not to show at this time is personal and well justified. I still strongly feel she is a excellent breeder. I know there are good people on this forum and I can't make judgements because of the rude, uninformed comments of a few. I needed a few days to calm down and respond constructively to what I felt were a few nasty remarks. People can have differing viewpoints but I strongly feel they need to be expessed respectively. For someone to try to ram their own nasty unfounded opinion down the throat of anyone who stops by this forum says alot about that person, and I think the term is slander. Especially when all I was trying to do was respond by giving a true and honest opinion of my experience with Joey and Cotton Dogs. By the way, my 13 month old Cotton Dog puppy passed her Delta screening with flying colors. Delta SA, the group I belong to is one of the oldest and strickest of the local Delta groups. We starting prescreening all potential dogs to increase the success rate at testing time. I'll test her in May as I want to give her more time to emotionally mature. The comments she received during the screening were "beautiful dog, very smart and calm for a puppy." Ripley is a gem! |
| I'm just seeing a difference in opinions. Just because this breeder may not qualify to some of us as one we'd recommend, for VALID reasons ...doesn't mean we're "not playing nice." Not that we've never been guilty of being harsh, but for the most part... we just try to give good advice to others.
You're just offended b/c we do see red flags but if they had all their t's crossed and what-have-ya... the original poster wouldn't have had posters pm them to probably check out other breeders. I've not agreed with a few posters on this forum but outside of those particular topics (like politics, maybe religion) ...we get along fine. I assume you came here for other reasons than this breeder? We love talking about our OES' |
| Guest:::
Just so you know.... I have a rescued OES and with some work and alot of training she became a therapy dog when she was 3 years old. We are in the TOUCH Program from Support Dogs of Missouri. Only 30% of dogs are accepted after given a very detailed Temperament Test. After passing, the "team", (owner and dog) must attend a 2 hour weekly class for 12 weeks. At then end of that time, the owner must take a written test and the team must complete and pass a practical test. After this, on the same night, they must also pass their CGC. I have been with the TOUCH Program for the past 18 years, first with my Beardie then with my rescued OES, Pearl. When Pearl was about 11, I knew I needed another dog, another OES, to continue my work. I did't care about size, look, eye color....BUT I did care about health and more importantly temperament!! And, in addition, I also wanted the puppy to come with no major issues, such as being touched ALL over, being used to grooming and blow dryers ~~~ So my delimma was where to get this puppy, that I needed, wanted and but be almost guarenteed that I could continue my therapy work... Here was my thought process...... I didn't WANT to spend the money for a champion lined puppy..but could I chance NOT getting the kind of puppy I was looking for??? Well, the answer in my case was a resounding NO!!! So I began saving my extra money...1st thing I did... Now WHERE to find this special pup??? OESCA!!! NO guarentee, but as close to it I could get! IF BOTH parents were Champions, I could be pretty certain that the temperament would be there...I mean, I have seen dog shows (who hasn't?) The judge touches their privates, looks at their teeth, ears , eyes and then they are running in front of spectators...the noise, distractions ~~~they have to be pretty stable.... Contacted my (future) breeder....talked on the phone, emailed up the wazoo about what my goals were, and what kind of puppy I needed. She gave me a website so I could see the mom and dad's champion lines, gave me a website to see their scores on hips, eye etc.... I also knew that my breeder did not breed often, has the puppies in her bedroom or she was sleeping close by, that she loved and nutured them, in her home 24/7. This was very important to me!!!! Talking to her, getting to know her (and her , me) allowed her to watch the puppies from day 1 and pick out the perfect puppy for my needs. "Heart" came to me very close to being potty trained, not caring about me touching her all over, not being fearful of grooming or blow drying,,,just a lovely bundle of fluff! She had some noise issues, but, since her temperament was so good, I was able to work on this successfully. Heart graduated the TOUCH program in November. We are now visitng a rehab center and we are also involved in the PAWS program at our library. Sorry this is so long, but I felt maybe, hearing from someone NOT involved in showing....NOT a breeder.....and how I reasoned this all out, would help you understand, why some of us are so adamant about reputable breeders who show their dogs. Heart was worth EVERY penny...I will be getting her hips and elbows tested in a few months. She is very healthy and happy and (even though it didn't matter...))) very BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!! My Heart on TOUCH Graduation Day!!!!!  |
| So glad all your hard work paid off with your puppy. I know and also enjoy the fun of sharing my dogs doing therapy work. Can't wait until this one matures a little more so I can start using her.
We both have dogs we love and are very happy with. I followed the same process you did and also couldn't be more pleased with the results. What I don't like is the "royal" we know there is something wrong with this person,and placing those comments on a public forum. If someone has facts they would like to share with me in a private e-mail feel free. Valid facts have substance, not liking someone because they aren't part of the "pack" don't fly in my world Love my sheepie. She down a few notches from my high drive working shepherds, but thats what I wanted at this stage in my life. Just as smart, the hair is just a different issue |
| We would love to see a picture of your sheepie.......We love pictures!!!!
Good luck with your goals for her! |
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