I HAVE A DIGGER and IS IT TIME TO NEUTER?
Bogey, just this weekend, made a growl type noise to people touching his neck area. He knows these people and they know how to approach dogs. He is known to be so gentle and sweet. It sounds like a warning. There is no mouth or body language suggesting any aggression. He is 7 months old now. His obedience teacher said it is time to neuter. Is it too early? Is he changing? |
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Firstly get him checked out by a vet, if he is a really active 7 month old, you know full on bouncy then a possibility where those people patted him on the neck, he could be sore. Rule that out first. 
They dont as they mature just change so quickly because he is maturing it sounds like something else going on at the moment, not hormones. Digging well hard, maybe more activities outside with kongs, toys, throwing the ball to keep him occupied, more walks/exercise. Usually with digging it is a sign of boredom . |
| At the risk of getting my head bit off - again. The best age t neuter this breed is after a year. I hate to disagree with someone who calls themselvesa trainer - but neutering will probably have no effect on his behavior and it sounds to me like he needs some real training.
I am looking for a study that SUzanne Clothier quotes about the real effect of neutering on behavior (not anecdotal but research based) that indicates there may actually be an increase in aggressive behavior in neutered/spayed animals. But yes - a good thorough vet check up is in line. |
| I never suggest neutering until they are full grown. At least 18 months or later. Quite frankly, I have never seen neutering to make that much of a personality change. Get him checked over by your vet first. Then I'd try some good basic obedience training. |
For about 2 months Tiggy had one spot on her side just behind her elbow that would make her growl when anyone patted it. 
I couldnt find a sore spot when I rubbed it but after 2 months it stopped so I suspect she had strained something while running or playing and there was some tenderness. I would make sure people are very careful around his neck for a while. |
Mim wrote: I would make sure people are very careful around his neck for a while.
Uh-huh. And digging is not exactly an easy-going "sport", kind of hard on the dog's front (which includes neck), so the two may be connected. Digging is generally a clear sign of boredom. I had a pet puppy returned to me for digging (this started at about 9 mos old - he was about a year old when I got him back). I explained he needed more training and exercise, and they did try, but they just didn't have it in them to give him what he needed so I took him back before he became a neurotic mess. That said, with new sod is a wonderful invitation TO dig. All those nice, exciting smells Keeping him away from those areas may help break the digging urge. Take him out to eliminate on lead and don't allow him free access to the area. If he's out there to exercise, go with him as well and play with him. Helps build your relationship with him too. Good for you for taking him to obedience class!
Neutering is often offered as a "quick-fix" (no pun intended) solution to what actually requires good, old fashioned training. That said, by all means neuter him if that's what you plan to do anyway. Just know that orthopedically they are much better off if you can wait till their growth plates have closed (typically in our size dogs probably 14-18 mos old). Less important if you don't intend to do anything requiring athletiscim and he's just intended to be your run of the mill couch potato pet. I notice that most of us who feel strongly on the topic actually do stuff with our dogs.  There are other health related reasons to wait at least till maturity, but none of them as clear cut as the orthopedic issues, and if living with an intact dog for even a few extra months up to a year is problematic, neuter him.
But still plan on continuing his training and up his exercise (once you're sure he's not ouchy) because those are the two truly critical components to raising a well adjusted puppy. Kristine |
| When I had problems with the girls digging in my flower beds, I put "chicken wire" down and then dirt over it and wood chips/rocks. So when they would start to dig they hit the chicken wire. I know that is not the solution to the sod, but it will work in your flower beds if Boggy starts there. |
| bring bogey up here to dig with dreamer.. i saw a show that they got a baby pool and put sand in it and their toys so they would dig in the sand pile for them it might work .. dreamer does it in the drive way he is almost to china |
| Many many dogs don't like to be touched around the neck area. Some dogs will react badly to hugs, some to "collar grabs".
It is also possible that he just doesn't like that one person. Possible but not probable IMHO. For my nickel's worth on the neutering, my first guy came to us at the age of three with vet records of a difficult but ultimately successful neutering. He was always a bold and alpha dog for his first 8 years with us. Then when his cryptorchid (hidden, undescened testicle) became cancerous and was removed at the age of 11, he became the sweetest and gentlest dog. For what it's worth. |
kerry wrote: At the risk of getting my head bit off - again. The best age t neuter this breed is after a year. I hate to disagree with someone who calls themselvesa trainer - but neutering will probably have no effect on his behavior and it sounds to me like he needs some real training.
I am looking for a study that SUzanne Clothier quotes about the real effect of neutering on behavior (not anecdotal but research based) that indicates there may actually be an increase in aggressive behavior in neutered/spayed animals. But yes - a good thorough vet check up is in line. No head biting here!  These are all great posts and absolutely right on. Get a thorough vet check to rule out anything physical first - Dogs in pain will react differently to anything that normally isn't a problem. I'm disappointed that a trainer would immediately offer that as a solution -- It's not as though neutering is a magic pill that makes all dogs perfectly behaved - Far from it. 
Even if you do neuter now, Bogey is still a puppy and will be for quite some time yet (another year or two quite probably ) Neutering him won't change that. That being said, you have the perfect opportunity to re-direct behaviors you don't like into behaviors you DO like, because he's so young and a sponge for information. It's FAR easier to train a puppy than a grown dog with undesirable behaviors. Boredom can cause all kinds of destructive activity, and obedience training is great but it only gives you the basic skill-set -- You still have to know your own dog and re-direct HIS unwanted behavior. Every dog is different, and you have to be tuned in to him all the time.
For now, accompany him out into the yard and just observe what he does. If he starts to dig (he may not, because you're more interesting than dirt), gently correct him and reward him when he responds - EVERY TIME. Then offer an alternative activity, something he enjoys. Do this on a consistent basis and he'll soon get the message. After a while he'll think twice about digging and hopefully stop completely because he knows you don't want him to. He may always be inclined to dig, but he will know that that is something you don't want, as opposed to something he does just because it's FUN. He wants to please you - Show him how. |
| i was surprised that the trainer suggested neutering first. she did say try that first. he also is doing well in obedience training. i don't know if it is boredom causing his digging. he plays a lot with gigi and i am out there with them much of the time. i will have treats with me . that was a good suggestion. chicken wire under the sod sounds good too.
ok suzy will be up there for digging! ha! he is a wonderful boy and so good. ok can work on the digging. the neutering, i was going to do it at a year. i will take him to the vet to check if there is anything else going on. gigi and him do play a lot. but he does not react to me when i hug him or touch him. the times he did growl werep 1. his brother was visiting and bogey, gigi and him were playing. his brother's owner, a few times, went to pet him by the neck he growled. a few times. of course, the owner stopped. 2. it was thanksgiving and lots of chaos in the house. my mom was trying to get bogey off the couch. he warned her. 3. he was in obedience class and they were simulating people coming up to him to pet him. he growl when touched. it was also a noisy class that day. could it be he was overstimulated on these ocasions? |
oesmom2 wrote: i was surprised that the trainer suggested neutering first. she did say try that first. he also is doing well in obedience training. i don't know if it is boredom causing his digging. he plays a lot with gigi and i am out there with them much of the time. i will have treats with me . that was a good suggestion. chicken wire under the sod sounds good too.
ok suzy will be up there for digging! ha! he is a wonderful boy and so good. ok can work on the digging. the neutering, i was going to do it at a year. i will take him to the vet to check if there is anything else going on. gigi and him do play a lot. but he does not react to me when i hug him or touch him. the times he did growl werep 1. his brother was visiting and bogey, gigi and him were playing. his brother's owner, a few times, went to pet him by the neck he growled. a few times. of course, the owner stopped. 2. it was thanksgiving and lots of chaos in the house. my mom was trying to get bogey off the couch. he warned her. 3. he was in obedience class and they were simulating people coming up to him to pet him. he growl when touched. it was also a noisy class that day. could it be he was overstimulated on these ocasions? 1. his brother was visiting and bogey, gigi and him were playing. his brother's owner, a few times, went to pet him by the neck he growled. a few times. of course, the owner stopped. This could be one of two things: He was play growling or he was 'resource guarding', the resource in this case being his playmates. In either case, it needs to be corrected at the point at which it occurs, as it is never acceptable for the growl to extend to humans. When the owner stopped, it reinforced the negative behavior. my mom was trying to get bogey off the couch. he warned her. Again, guarding/territoriality. I don't know how she was trying to remove him (pulling on the collar saying 'Down, Bogie'?) but he was telling her in no uncertain terms that the couch was his and he was going to stay there. Furniture should be by invitation only and he should clearly understand that when it's time to get off, he gets off. 3. he was in obedience class and they were simulating people coming up to him to pet him. he growl when touched. it was also a noisy class that day. could it be he was overstimulated on these ocasions? It could very well be that he was over-stimulated and stressed. However, every time he growls and the result is that he gets what he wants he's being rewarded for growling. As he gets older that's a very dangerous thing and could easily escalate. Having a well socialised and happy puppy takes a lot of work and vigilance - It will wear you out at times. What's cute as a puppy can be horrifying when they're grown, and sometimes it's hard to know which is which. The rule of thumb I always use is 'What would this look like at age 5?' If you can visualise that you'll have a better grasp pf what to correct and what to tolerate. Growling is something that should be corrected immediately. The upside to being vigilant is that you're giving him the information he needs to understand what you expect, and by doing that you're making him more secure and confident - A win-win. |
| I would wonder about any trainer who's first response to a behavioral issue is to neuter a dog, could be she isn't used to dogs with character and more of a trainer-lite than a real trainer. What I mean by that is I contacted the trainer from the nearestbig city newspaper. she writes a weekly blog and answers all pet questions sent to the paper. she is a 100% positive trainer (Boldly printed on anything pertaining to her). I asked where she got her traininga nd what were her credentials. She took a 6 week course (okay guys you know how much your dogs learned in their first 6 week obedience course) from the San Francisco Humance society.
I said thank you very much and went elsewhere. not to get political, but trainers need experience with all kinds of dogs, and all kinds of training methods - one size does not fit all. |
| bogey and gigi's obedience teacher has lots of experience. has been in the field for more than 30 years. she trains labs for seeing eye dogs. has also worked for vets for a very long time. i too was surprised she said to try neuter first. |
| I have always had or been around labs and I love the breed and we have thought of bringing another into our home. That said, these breeds are very different. I easily trained our lab, I couldn't Chauncey. I went with a trainer that our vet and kennel recommended for him, she specialized in German Sheppard's. She worked in home 1:1 with us for 2 hours then told us he was the most stubborn puppy ( 10 weeks old ) that shes ever dealt with and that she was at loss. I have learned that when dealing with a trainer, groomer, daycare or kennel...make sure to ask if they have had experience with an OES or another herding breed. |
oesmom2 wrote: bogey and gigi's obedience teacher has lots of experience. has been in the field for more than 30 years. she trains labs for seeing eye dogs. has also worked for vets for a very long time. i too was surprised she said to try neuter first.
Yeah our first trainer had decades of experience too, was a retired vet as well. unfortunatlrey all of ehr previous experience (at least that made an impression on her) was with labs, shelties and goldens. It really didn't translate. |
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