how not to do the triple jump
I have been working Marley outside while he is out there doing downs and stays because the nights are getting so short. And because he will need to do some jumping if we continue with rally and obedience for him - I usually let him go over a few shorter jumps as a reward for long sit stays or downs while she practices. Unfortunately, Saturday and Sunday he was home all day as I was out with Marley on Saturday and by myself (wonder of wonders) on Sunday. Because of this, I let the two of them out i the yard while I set up the new triple jump I bought before I went on vacation last month and which was gathering dust in the living room (hey it flanked one side of the TV while the grooming table flanks the other. Who needs an OES lives here sign when you have that set up?) Anyway I put the jump up and was making adjustments when Morgan decided the way through this jump was through the side - I kid you not!! he looked like a cow in a milking stanchion standing there with his head through the uprights. I removed him and Marley did some very nice combinations over single jumps the triple and the panel. So why not make it more interesting? I brought out the broad jump and she cleared it beautifully. And then I have no idea what came over me. I thought - why not try Morgan on this? And I did - and he walked right through it 
Now the bad part of this is - apparently Marley was watching. I could not get her over the broad jump again yesterday - she continues to walk on it instead 
She couldn't learn to heel form watching Morgan, or a nice military flip - NO! she has to choose to learn to plow through the broad jump |
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| Its a conspiracy.
They have their own forum: forum.gullibleoesowners.org They compare stories in their Antics thread about how they can push our buttons and how we fall for it every time. Then they roll around on the floor "laughing" about it. I tell myself this because it is easier to accept than "that is the way it is". |
You two crack me up! 
Kerry - Morgan reminds me of Che's approach to life. And jumps. Enough said.
Apparently Sybil and Mim's Tiggy have been communicating via the forum Judi mentioned  
I wonder if they share pictures of us sleeping upside down, running around playing with our friends, bad hair days...what other important mile stones did I miss? 
Maybe a special brag section? Marley posts: Kerry finally shows signs of understanding how to stay away from MY sheep. 
Sybil: after running into her full tilt for the 345th time (so she's a little slow on the uptake, what can I do? ), Kristine is finally learning to step out of my way when I take her for a walk. 
Harry: Judi's a lot more stubborn than most humans. But, you know, I love her. And through consistency and peserverance I think I'm finally getting her under control. Once she stops arguing with me on course I think she's going to be a really fast agility human.
A rescue section for owner/handlers?
"I'm afraid I'm going to have to find a new home for my 34 year old human. She really has too much energy for my life style. Wakes me up at all hours. If I don't take her to the park at least three times a day she drives me nuts! She's really sweet, she's just too much for me. I think she would be much better off in a more active home. I'm sure there's a lab or a border collie out there who would love to have her. Call 555XXXXXXX I'm pretty sure I don't want to know what gets discussed in their grooming section!
Kristine  |
Mad Dog wrote: I'm pretty sure I don't want to know what gets discussed in their grooming section!
Kristine I am sure they also have a section devoted to human show attire |
| I'm so grateful these guys don't have the toe dexterity to write about us here on the forum! |
| I seriously would NOT like to know what Chewie would write, with all the stuff we do......
On the other hand, I wonder what a basset hound thinks of humans???  that has to really an earful.
Kerry - I'm happy to see that jump graduated to the great outdoors! And a jump question - Do any of your OES really notice the difference (so that it matters) between a single, double or triple jump?? Chewie doesn't care in the least. He jumps them correctly, but seems to otherwise not even show any emotion or exertion with a triple vs a single. People in my class with other breeds actually worry about it.....and I have no clue why, based on Chewie's take on it.  |
| ROTFLMAO!!!!
You missed the entertainment forum: Tiggy posted last night. "Tonight after my upright got home late and tired from work I decided to liven up her evening. I waited till she wasnt looking and pulled the full tub of yoghurt off the counter top. It made a great "splot" sound as it hit the floor that really got her attention. She made a lot of noise and spent ages with paper towels and mops and buckets. She seemed especially pleased about all the yoghurt splats up the cupboards and all over the oven door. Now she keeps looking at the dried yoghurt in my leg coat, I think she really likes it. I'm saving it for a snack for later. All in all I think she had a great time and she was really quiet and well behaved afterwards, she didnt bother me with brushes or try and make me do tricks to keep her from being bored. Does anyone else have any innovative ideas for keeping their upright from getting bored and bothering you" |
got sheep wrote: And a jump question - Do any of your OES really notice the difference (so that it matters) between a single, double or triple jump?? Well there is a difference and they see it but if they are showing no difference in their behavior then I would say the dog is just not phased and is adjusting accordingly even if it doesn't look there is any extra effort. got sheep wrote: People in my class with other breeds actually worry about it..... Their dog may not have noticed the difference initially perhaps dropping a bar and now the owner is obsessing about it thus creating stressful energy for the dog to pick up on and obsess about said jumps. Just my take. Harry obsesses over nothing - except the start line. I don't take responsibility for that one though because I stupidly believed that problem was in our past (thus not stressing) even though Kristine predicted this would happen.got sheep wrote: Chewie doesn't care in the least. He jumps them correctly, but seems to otherwise not even show any emotion or exertion with a triple vs a single.
Harry doesn't show any extra exertion either - because he jumps everything as if it is the Grand Canyon. In other words way more exertion than necessary. But then his motto is "wheeeeeeeeeeeee" - even when getting on the couch.
Kerry, I forgot to mention earlier that Morgan's sideways entry into the triple was a stunt Harry pulled at a trial with a double. Kristine heard about it through a friend who heard about the "crazy Old English" from the judge.
I am telling you ..... it's a conspiracy. And God help me if Harry is on that forum in the grooming section talking about MY hair. |
| Judi - my 1st thought was also that it was the humans obsessing over the jump difference as well. I was just curious if this also might be an OES "thing" = like some hidden claim to fame! Sort of a secret weapon to counteract all the craziness we deal with...LOL
Last night at class Chewie got all wound up and crazy on a run (difficult to imagine, I know ), and I was talking with one of the instructors - telling her if it happened again I would be correcting the barking, as it's a behavior we have successfully dealt with before (in weight pulls). She was OK after I explained it, after I promised it would curb the behavior, and not dampen his enthusiasm - as he would know what I was correcting (the barking only). She got a lightbulb look and said - "Oh -like Border Collie brain!" - when they get in the zone and are crazy wound-up. LOL, I had to laugh that Chewie got linked in the same comparison as a BC.
I think they (instructors) are enjoying having an OES in class - he is a 1st for the kennel club. A learning curve for them as well. 
BTW - didn't need to deal with the barking - I changed my handling, and he settled for the next run. |
| Barking in agility is usually frustration, Dawn. Handler wasn't fast enough, clear enough, etc. Very common in most herding breeds.
His female relatives don't do this. They ram into me instead
His mother once got so angry with me for not letting her bolt off to do a tunnel - this was in competition - but instead pulling her back to restart the weaves (she kept popping the last ones and had this horrible tunnel suck thing going on, you could basically hear the vaccuum drawing her in ) that after the third time she went behind me as directed and instead of going into the weaves lowered her head and rammed me, but good.
She's also the dog who would come out of a tunnel and hit me in the knees if I didn't get out of her way fast enough. At least once she sent me flying up in the air. I came down HARD. She kept going. You don't mess with his momma! Kristine |
| Oh Dawn - I am always lothe to answer these questions becuse I wonder if I just don't see it. I never have noticed Marley reacting differently to any jump other than the panel - which we fixed and now the broad jump - which Morgan better figure out how to fix!
Not that she doesn't drop bars - she does for various reasons, but no more on the triple than other jumps. |
Mad Dog wrote: Barking in agility is usually frustration, Dawn. Handler wasn't fast enough, clear enough, etc. Very common in most herding breeds.
Kristine I know - that was the barking in weight pulls too - his frustration bark. Still, not a habit I want him to get into. We stop, regroup and proceed again. He was ready to race (beginning of the class, "happy crazy" dog had just run the short course immediately before him) and he got crazy too.
I adjusted as well - and we fixed the issue (for the night, next week is a whole new opportunity!). Of course, it was the 2nd run then, so he was ready to acknowledge I and some direction existed too.....
Oh, he's not exempt from the family head butt - he does that as plan B |
Oh you two - its not a family head but, unless it goes way back in the lineage. I got butted last night becasue I wasn't quick enough to acknowledge the Princess' precense when I got home. This was after I ignored the demanding barks - perhaps she is as we speak writing about my selective hearing issues on the OES dog forum  |
kerry wrote: Oh you two - its not a family head but, unless it goes way back in the lineage. I got butted last night becasue I wasn't quick enough to acknowledge the Princess' precense when I got home. This was after I ignored the demanding barks - perhaps she is as we speak writing about my selective hearing issues on the OES dog forum
So, the part of the standard that talks about the * large, capacious head with plenty of room for brainpower* is in reality only partially true. It should continue on with "and is better to butt the owner in the seat of the pants with when they are being out of line." |
got sheep wrote: kerry wrote: Oh you two - its not a family head but, unless it goes way back in the lineage. I got butted last night becasue I wasn't quick enough to acknowledge the Princess' precense when I got home. This was after I ignored the demanding barks - perhaps she is as we speak writing about my selective hearing issues on the OES dog forum So, the part of the standard that talks about the * large, capacious head with plenty of room for brainpower* is in reality only partially true. It should continue on with "and is better to butt the owner in the seat of the pants with when they are being out of line." I DARE you to send that to the breed standard revision committee...<snicker> 
Dear Ms Cooke, Practical working experience has shown...... Respectfully yours, XXX KB |
| There are a few things to consider when jumping.
First of all, though dogs are not horses (their spines have a much greater degree of flexibility for one thing), if you think back to horses, a short backed horse (good for quick turns - think QH for instance) typically has more trouble with spread jumps than a longer backed one. I experienced this first hand with my jumper growing up. He was a lovely, lovely horse, and a very keen and wise jumper. But he was short backed (and relatively big boned, ring a bell?) and just didn't have the scope over spreads that many of his competitors did. But we jumped within his comfort zone and when we won it was on time and his ability to turn tightly. Our dogs tend to be fairly shortbacked, proportionately (that whole "square" thing) I.e. this is not a breed that is necessarily built to jump exceptionally well. I've had a number of people walk up to me, first when I was running Belle, more lately with Sybil, and express surprise that OES CAN jump (no one every expressed surprise that Mad could jump, because she couldn't: she was fast and flat and even though she has better structure than Belle and Sybil both, she, I'll be honest here, never saw the point in keeping bars up. And I never knew you're supposed to teach them to jump) . Belle was a naturally decent jumper. Sybil has been trained to be a good jumper (one hopes) Mind you, I've worked her sister almost the same way and she, again, despite having superior structure, is NOT a particularly good jumper. Mainly she lacks confidence I think. So I go back and rework and rework her jumping trying to figure out what I missed. Anyway, for most dogs, and certainly for many of ours, spreads DO tend to be more challenging at the dog's regular jump height than simple jumps. How do we know this? All else being equal, those are the bars you take down more often than straight jumps. That's why some people get flustered about them. ("BIG jump!!!" they yell. Maybe the dog gets that cue, I don't know). There are a few things at play. Ignoring the broad jump for a moment. One is that not only are they jumping the height with the added width, often they're doing it at angles. When I ran Sybil this past Sunday the double was at a 90 degree in standard, not something we practice often (hole in training, duly noted) and I didn't turn her as tightly as I could have because it was the double and she'd be more likely to take it down. With experience, that's less likely to happen. Now, the double and triple are two very different jumps. The triple spread is longer than the double, so that should be the more difficult jump, right? Wrong. (For an athletic dog) Why? Two reasons. The ascending nature, which means they can naturally be at the apex of their jump as they go over the last bar - IF they take off correctly. AND, it's easier to see that it's a spread Why is the double more of an issue? Well, same reason a parallel oxer is in show jumping: they have to actually sustain max jump height going forward in the air (or, more typically, jump higher over the double than their normal jump height so they are still sufficiently high enough up as they start to descend over the further bar to not hit it on their way down): the apex of their (ideal) jumping curve is midway between the two top bars. (Though it's not actually wide enough that this is a big deal for most dogs) And, two, because the top bars are parallel, they don't (necessarily) know it's a double until they take off. Which means they are guaging max jump height/apex on the first bar. I.e. they're (often) effectively jumping early. And if they're jumping flat, they risk taking the second bar - the one they couldn't see - down. Some dogs are so concientious they learn to REALLY overjump to compensate. Not ideal, either. Wastes time AND is more wear and tear on the dog. That's why doubles are set up differently than any other jump: with the two lower bars crossed. An experienced dog learns, I believe, to recognize this as a cue that it's the double and adjusts their take-off accordingly. All that said, Sybil, who is my best jumper by far to date, has issues with the spreads. It's as if she sees one and goes OHMIGOD!!! Extra effort is needed!!!!!!!! She habitually takes off early. She usually clears them because she's just that althetic. But this is not proper OR efficient jumping style. I've learned to incorporate doubles and triples in my jumping grids more (and still I'm behind on this) I wish I had done it more when I was starting her out and I try to remember to do so more with dogs I've started since her. It's not a huge deal. Experience teaches a sensible dog how to deal with this fairly easily. It's still the handlers who have problems more so than the dogs. A word or two on the special challenges of panel jumps later. Also something that has to be specifically and carefully taught as part of the package of building a smart, confident jumper. None of the above gospel. Just some thoughts based on experiences, screw ups, deficiencies (mine ) and observations.
Kristine |
| OK, panel jump. Another one that dogs tend to take down. I'll jinx myself when I say this, but Sybil never has. I taught her on my solid obedience panel jump, starting and staying low for some time before I raised it up, which might have something to do with it
This is another jump the dogs don't tend to see nearly enough resulting in confidence issues. I didn't figure that out with Belle till we were in Excellent. Actually, a rather well-known trainer spelled it out for me. PLUS, when it's at full height, they're essentially jumping it blind (not sure what's beyond the jump) I got that lesson brought home to me pretty solidly a few weeks ago on an Open Standard course. Sybil took the panel at considerable speed and at an angle, which the turn dicated, and didn't realize she would have to collect to straighten up to hit the dogwalk upramp straight on until she was in midair. She couldn't check herself fast enough, hit the upramp and went off the side. Mea culpa. It never crossed my mind. All kinds of things you need to remember, and especially with a green dog. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: OK, panel jump. Another one that dogs tend to take down. I'll jinx myself when I say this, but Sybil never has. I taught her on my solid obedience panel jump, starting and staying low for some time before I raised it up, which might have something to do with it
Kristine I used the solid wood (not even the newer plastic) high jump I have at home for 2 1/2 years before Chewie ever saw the more flimsy agility one. He has never ticked the agility panel jump. So, I think it does have significance on their performance.  |
| Yes and no - Marley hated the solid wood panel obedience jump we tried to train her on at one school (totally refused ot jump it) - but would take the plastic agility jump with no problem. What can I say she will never be an obedience dog she likes to be in control too much |
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