Vets speak out against Cesar Millan
|
|
| Good info. Thanks for posting. |
| The disclaimer "Do not attempt these techniques yourself...". You KNOW
people are going to try it at home without the advice of a professional. |
| I think that's the biggest problem. SURE it may say "do not try this at home", but these shows are presented as "here's how you can train your dog" programs. Many of my friends watch Milan and then use the techniques he advocates in his shows and in his books. Regardless of the legally required warning, these products are meant for people to "learn" from and implement in their own homes.
One of my friends that watches the program tried to use one on Milan's "techniques" on one of my dogs, without first asking me. My dog went from rambunctious (which, while annoying, is mostly harmless) to vicious in the blink of an eye. My friends response was "I've never seen your dog like that! It works for Cesar on TV...." I had to ask her to never touch my dogs again, with any sort of "training" intended. |
| I don't agree with Cesar Millan's methods. I stopped watching when I saw an episode with a sheltie who was terrified of the toaster. Cesar took the toaster and pinned the dog into a corner and kept flicking the popping mechanism. The poor sheltie was terrified. His eyes were wide and he kept trying to get away. Finally, the dog was so stressed that he laid on the floor and was panting heavily. Cesar said that the dog overcame his fear, I didn't see it that way.
I do enjoy watching Victoria Stilwell. I enjoy her positive re-enforcement techniques. |
I LOVE Victoria Stillwell!!! She moved to Atlanta last year and I keep hoping to run into her. My second hope is that if I DO run into her, that Tonks and Luna are well behaved. 
As for the toaster; my first question would be "is it that big a deal if your dog is afraid of the toaster?" And if for whatever reason it was, I'd say pop the toaster, and give the dog a treat. Pop it again, and give another treat. Repeat. Eventually the dog will associate the sound of the toaster with getting treats; replacing a negative experience with a positive one. Is it more work on your part? Sure. But aren't our pets worth the effort? |
I do like Cesar's no touch, no talk, no eye contact... being more aloof in some situations. Why is it when I see a dog though, all that goes out the window? I met a gorgeous black German Shepherd yesterday... he was with his MI State Police handler. Honest, I tried to stay aloof and I allowed him to come to me. But I couldn't keep my hands off him  Sigh... I love dogs.
Cesar is right about not to mistakenly rewarding a dog for fearful or inappropriate behavior. But I'd rather get a dog to comply through a reward system instead of a firm hand. Bribery works extremely well here 
I like Victoria and her approach.  I haven't watched her on TV in a long time. Though I do believe there are times when a prong collar can mean the difference between having control of a dog and putting both the human and the dog in a bad situation, I personally seldom use one now after watching one of her episodes. The exception is circumstances that require I be near a busy road... then I use two collars with a double clip leash  |
| I think Cesar does a good job of showing people all dogs can be trained. I also think he's great at showing the stereotypical agressive breeds ( pits, etc) as being trainable...
HOWEVER, if anyone watching his show thinks he is accomplishing what he says he's accomplishing in a 30 min segment, forget it. I wonder what he is doing in between that makes these dogs cringe when he does his "sst" noise...electric collar???? I agree in that some dogs need and can take a harsher hand than others. But positive training is always the best route. You need to learn your dogs drives and what makes them tick. what may be harsh for one dog may be waht is needed for another. Ubfortunately, if you ahve a soft dog and the training is harsh, that dog will shut down and be freigntened. Not only won't it learn but it will ruin the relationship with the owner. Your dog needs to trust you... I am a big advocate on training. But I caution anyone and everyone, interview the trainer first, go to a few classes alone, if you don't like what you see, go somewhere else. And never be embarassed to tell a trainer sorry, I am not doing this to my dog and walking out. Not all trainers are the same. |
| After working many years with police dogs I can tell you Cesar Millan's methods were never used on any of the dogs I worked with or trained. Nor do I use his methods with any of my dogs that I have now. I am more of a Victoria fan myself. |
| I like Ceasar but then I wouldn't try to use his techniques in difficult situations and certainly not on anyone else's dog!! There have been one or two times when I thought he was a little over the top. From personal experience, 'pack leadership' techniques have worked very well for us i.e always going out the door before Ru & eating first etc. I feel it is natural for a dog to be comfortable if they know their place in the 'pack'. |
| I don't know if his methods are the best way ...but only b/c I haven't tried every technique out there on our dogs, ,but I know his techniques have helped us a lot with our dogs. There will always be critiques to a certain way of doing things ......just look at how many "this is the best way to diet" techniques ...but I never find 1 person has the technique that works on EVERY dog. |
| I don't think training is a one size fits all situation. I've found incorporating a little bit of lots of different types of training to work well with my guys. You just have to use common sense and do what works (without hurting the dogs). |
Joahaeyo wrote: I don't know if his methods are the best way ...but only b/c I haven't tried every technique out there on our dogs, ,but I know his techniques have helped us a lot with our dogs. There will always be critiques to a certain way of doing things ......just look at how many "this is the best way to diet" techniques
...but I never find 1 person has the technique that works on EVERY dog.ABSOLUTElY - if you notice I always advise people to look for a trainer with a number of tricks in their toolbox - instead of a one method or philosophy trainer. Its really like raising kids - some need a different approach. |
| I don't know about Cesar Milan, but I do believe that relying on positive reinforcement solely is nothing but a transfer of liberal, PC child-rearing thinking to dogs. Not that I condone spanking a child or corporal punishment, but there are behaviors that need to be shown to be unacceptable and you can't do that only by praise and reward. I believe that the same goes with dogs.
I have watched my own pack dynamics quite a bit. My two males compete with one another for certain things even though there is a definite dominance between the two. Up to a year ago this occasionally resulted in a few real, scary fights. I have managed to break them up but there have been bites both to them and to me. The strong emotions when a dog is in a fight stance can override all training in any dog. The last fight was in the yard when the two boys and Kaylie was over, (my neighbor's older lab-shepherd mix who is nominally Charlie's, my older male's, mate but is pretty even handed with both males). Kaylie doesn't put up with a lot of crap from the two boys when they are together and they form a pretty stable pack. When they got into this last fight, she was 20 or 30 feet away, but immediately ran to them and jumped into the middle of the fray, whirling and snapping at both males before I could even react. She quickly drove them apart and then ran from one to the other showing no favoritism, snapping the air until they were far apart. Both males looked astonished and immediately calmed down, their attention directed solely at Kaylie. Clearly she sent a message that she was not about to put up with her two pack-mates fighting. It was hardly an example of positive reinforcement but was clearly a warning and an example of how a senior dog enforces discipline in a pack. The boys got the message better than I could have even given it. That was over a year ago and we haven't had a recurrence. If that is anything like the point Cesar Milan is making, then I have to agree with it. I was there. It was an eye opener. |
| No... I don't believe you can use only bribery if the pack isn't stable or there isn't enough human respect. And there are some dogs that are simply too full of themselves... I've had some.
I'm thankful we haven't had any dog fights in a few years. We brought in a professional who had experience with aggressive dogs. From the start he told us that he was not going to be handling our dogs... he was going to teach us how to do it. He was a humane trainer and we learned to be more observant about the silent dog language of posturing and learning what situations could pose a problem so we could prevent fights before they started. But we had it rough for about 6 months or so. Fortunately the worst dogs were 40 to 50 pounds and could be grabbed by the scruff, lifted in the middle, removed and quarantined briefly until order could be restored. Neither of these dogs ever tried to bite me even the one that bites and shakes during a confrontation... grabbing the scruff also seemed to limit head movement. But I handle my dogs often by the scruff so they're more desensitized to this handling. If we've never witnessed a fight or only witnessed a squabble, we really can't imagine how violent they can be. We can often only base opinions and views on what we ourselves have experienced. Some dogs make a heck of a lot of noise and commotion yet do no real harm. Others are in it for blood like my OES-mix. One time she attacked my BC-mix who was on her back in a submissive display. She ripped into her... grabbing, shaking, biting over and over. My Schip-mix puppy at the time also chose to join in... the joy of pack mentality. The only thing that broke it up was a plastic broom rake I had been using to rake leaves. I had to hit my OES-mix with it over and over in order to break the focus and stop the fight. (I DID HER NO PHYSICAL HARM.) I fear she may have killed my BC-mix if I had not intervened. My BC-mix was left with puncture wounds on her abdomen, neck and leg... the leg wound required sutures. You have an aggressive dog and your watching Cesar's show... yet you're not really supposed to be using some of his techniques without first consulting a professional? Best not to be seeking help for aggressive dogs from a TV show... instead find a trainer who will come in and help you to handle your dog. |
6Girls wrote: Others are in it for blood like my OES-mix. One time she attacked my BC-mix who was on her back in a submissive display. She ripped into her... grabbing, shaking, biting over and over. My Schip-mix puppy at the time also chose to join in... the joy of pack mentality. The only thing that broke it up was a plastic broom rake I had been using to rake leaves. I had to hit my OES-mix with it over and over in order to break the focus and stop the fight. (I DID HER NO PHYSICAL HARM.) I fear she may have killed my BC-mix if I had not intervened. My BC-mix was left with puncture wounds on her abdomen, neck and leg... the leg wound required sutures.
You have an aggressive dog and your watching Cesar's show... yet you're not really supposed to be using some of his techniques without first consulting a professional? Best not to be seeking help for aggressive dogs from a TV show... instead find a trainer who will come in and help you to handle your dog. Two observatiosn - first that was a truly aggressive dog and I am glad the damage to your other dog wasn't worse. Secondly - entertainment should be taken as entertainment and real live bodies used to train your dog  |
Quote: Two observatiosn - first that was a truly aggressive dog and I am glad the damage to your other dog wasn't worse.
Yes. So I have experienced one very dog aggressive dog. To have attacked a dog on it's back offering up submission. But she was ours so rather than euthanizing her, we found ways to make it work. We used gates to keep them separated in the house but we always had to be on our toes. This is sad but there was peace after we had her put to sleep during exploratory surgery when they found incurable cancer. The BC-mix now has the respect of the rest of the pack and it's not due to what she can do with her teeth. She has never drawn blood on another dog. I didn't know enough about dogs back then... I blame myself for some of it. I expect it will be a lifetime of continued education. The only person my OES-mix ever bit was my son... on the thumb twice. Once as a child and again as an adult. I had told him the second time it was going to happen. Sorry but I could only laugh when the old girl did. He got a small cut on his thumb. I knew her limits and did my best to always respect them. She was not allowed to interact with many other people. I had both a proven biter and dog aggressive dog so it was my responsibility to over protect other people, other dogs and this dog that I loved. She is the dog I refer to when I say we found workarounds. I forced her to do nothing... I could bribe her to do anything except roll over on her back in a submissive posture. This same dog was SO sweet and gentle with wild birds I tended to and my rabbits... if she found a bird on the ground she would show me. She didn't have a high prey drive to chase. A difficult dog in some situations... endearing in others. When you see the violence a dog is capable of, you can't help but step back and marvel at stable dogs. Even more so at dogs that are not as tolerant but have good bite inhibition. They are capable of doing so much damage. One thing learned from a friend over the past year was to try to correct them with a more even toned voice rather than getting high pitched, excited and shouting. It seems to keep them in a more stable mind. If they're barking, I do still yell in order to be heard
I took several hours last night trying to compose a letter to a sanctuary to see if they might help a human aggressive dog... sent it off at just before 4am. I just got a read receipt that they have opened it. Please keep your fingers crossed that they might have an opening. Sadly, I think they may be this dog's last hope. Life at the sanctuary may more closely match his life before being rescued. There are some difficult cases that require much more that what many of us can or are willing to offer. Many of these dogs are euthanized, others deserve this one last chance. |
| I have watched both Victoria and Caesar and of the 2....I love Victoria. And do not agree w/ Caesar 99% of the time. However, some of this methods (not the extreme ones - like the toaster, to me that's just plain cruel) seem to work on my very stubborn OES.
I have tried Victoria's ways and Caesar's and it seems my stubborn boy doesn't APPEAR very quick to the pick up on the whole do the right thing get the treat deal.  |
| We use praise a LOT here, but we also let the dogs know when they are not behaving. If they start barking or something we don't like I say in a stern voice..."get inside" it's sooooo cute, they immediately stop and both go under the desk in my kitchen. Not actual desk...the built in kind whatever. Well picture a 9 pound Bichon and HUGE Lucky (oes) both scrambling to get under there first..ha ha ha |
oesgirl82 wrote: I have watched both Victoria and Caesar and of the 2....I love Victoria. And do not agree w/ Caesar 99% of the time. However, some of this methods (not the extreme ones - like the toaster, to me that's just plain cruel) seem to work on my very stubborn OES.
I have tried Victoria's ways and Caesar's and it seems my stubborn boy doesn't APPEAR very quick to the pick up on the whole do the right thing get the treat deal. well - do you stop at the red light because the police man gives you $5 everytime you do? There is a place for consequences. |
ButtersStotch wrote: I don't think training is a one size fits all situation. I've found incorporating a little bit of lots of different types of training to work well with my guys. You just have to use common sense and do what works (without hurting the dogs).
I agree completely. I agree with many of Cesar's principles, most of all that dogs are dogs and not small furry people, but I have never used his dominant training techniques with any of my own dogs or the dogs I train. His techniques are a bit heavy handed for the pet dog with annoying habits, but I can see his point when he works with aggressive dogs who are a danger to themselves and others. However, the one thing that Cesar has accomplished, and it's not a small thing, is championing the cause of the 'powerful breeds' and proving that they can be rehabilitated. He's helped change the perception of those dogs, particularly pit bulls, who have suffered at the hands of people who abuse them and those who misunderstand the breed. No matter whether we agree with him or not, he's saved the lives of many dogs who can't speak for themselves and for that I thank him. |
| for everyone that says people tried to do what ceaser did and it did not work. I guess you don't pay attention.You think you have no fear but you do,or your body says different, or your energy is not the same as Ceaser's. You are trying to do something he has been trying to master his whole life. And he is always trying to learn new things. i bet you people give up to quick and if you have watched his show's. He has had dogs try to bite,scratch and go all crazy but he does not give up on them till they break. he is a professional that is why he has not had his arm ripped off. I would be honored to have someone like that train me. I would love to do what he does. |
andrew burns wrote: till they break. Those 3 words speak volumes, have they been rehabilitated or merely broken? |
| Always do your research. I appreciate that Cesar has a charismatic personality which has attracted people to thinking more about training and a dog's point of view. However, a lot of what he says is based on pseudo-science. Even when something works for him, the reason he says it worked is actually not the real reason it worked. A dog's behavior has to do with more than dominance theory. Dominance theory became popular because supposedly it was based on wolf behavior. turns out those studies were done on captive wolf populations of unrelated individuals. Studies of wild canines show something different, much more subtle. Dominance as a solution to everything is popular because it is easy. A lot of what he does is dangerous. He may get away with it because he is such a strong personality, but remember this is a tv show that is not going to show you his failures. We don't see the whole process either. None of that happens in 30 minutes. before I decided to educate myself and work with an experienced behaviorist, I used several of his techniques with my "problem" foster dogs. Not only did they not work but they made the dogs worse. To the person who say it is because I was afraid, you don't know me to assume that. I have raised guide dog puppies, showed dogs in obedience, worked for one of the top theatrical animal trainers on the east coast, worked for a vet and held onto scared aggressive dogs, and fostered many "difficult" dogs. I tend to do very well with difficult dogs because I am in charge and they trust me. If you think I am wrong, prove me wrong. REad current research talk to other professionals. Forcing a scared dog to confront the scary object may work for a few dogs, for the vast majority it will make them worse. If you did something that he teaches and it worked, great! Some things he teaches are good. But be careful. Much of what he teaches is dangerous and the opposite of what current science has proven in behavioral studies. example of his ridiculousness - roll a dog on its back to show it you are in charge. a real dominant wolf does not need to go around rolling other wolves on their backs. That is used in rare dangerous situations to stop conflict. |
| I'm not interested in Cesar's techniques, and no single method could ever fit all dogs. I like Brad Pattison, he's Canadian and virtually unknown in the US, sadly he doesn't have a current show, but even with him, I've used a couple of his techniques to good effect, but there are many I would not use and I don't see them as applicable to my dogs (and our attitude to our dogs is completely different). You need a toolkit to train dogs, and the tools in it can come from many different places. |
Didn't find exactly what you're looking for? Search again here:
Custom Search
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|