Hair over the eyes?
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| sorry for all of the spelling mistakes I just woke up |
| Depends where you are, in Canada and the U.S I don't think you can cut the hair on the head for a show, only the bum and feet for cleanliness. |
Rogers Dad wrote: sorry for all of the spelling mistakes I just woke up You can always click on the "edit" button (on the same line as your name, at the right side of the screen) on any of your own posts!
Without it, my posts would be completely unintelligible, instead of just mostly so.  |
| Rogers Dad,
The breed standard, as listed on the OESCA site includes that catch all phrase "... Neither the natural outline nor the natural texture of the coat may be changed by any artificial means except that the feet and rear may be trimmed for cleanliness. ..." In addition to this the general shape of the dog's head is supposed to be large and accentuate the skull's squareness without being the hair being stepped. Thus if the fall were cut to allow better vision - and there is always plenty of debate as to how well these dogs see with fall versus without - the head's shape, and perhaps apparent size, would be severely compromised. So, it comes down to your own decision as to whether you are willing to chance the judge penalizing for an "... artificial shaping ..." or if you are willing to accept gathering the fall up by elastics, barrets or clips. Our beloved Punk - the grower of all hair - almost always wore a barret to hold his hair up, especially when it was at it's longest and in my opinion looked fine, nothing sissy or feminine about it. Then again he was a BIG OES, well over 100 lbs lean and quite tall and well proportioned. His picture is at the end of our line grooming photo essay at http://www.angelfire.com/trek/lindonlooniebin/home.html Michele frequently puts both Martin and Virgil's fall up in elastics while they are in the house and as long as it is symetrical and all the hair is captured it looks just fine. I recommend you leave the fall and get used to it being pulled up in an elastic etc when at home. Cheers Carl |
Rogers Dad wrote: I have always kept the hair cur out of the eyes, has anyone ever seen how the judges at a show react to this. I just think they are happier being able to see and I don't really care for the hair tied up on the head. |
| Thanks for the advise, I agree, why temp the judges to find a fault for no reason.
Thanks for the advise. |
| As you can see by Sky's pic in my avatar, she certainly has a lot of hair over her eyes. She won't keep barrette's in her hair, she paws at them and then eats them. I haven't put an elastic in because eating an elastic could be more dangerous than eating a small clip. She seems to be able to see just fine, but I think like someone said in another thread, it is probably like holding a mesh material in front of your eyes, eventually you adjust and you see "between the lines".
Dancer doesn't mind a clip in her hair, but Sky eats those too 
Sky will eat anything. |
| I agree and disagree, My last OES Lester had his hair in his eyes for the first year or so. One day he ran into the wall so I cut it off. His motions became more accurate / quicker, on the activities that required fine motor skills, like finding the ball I threw. If a dog has fine motor skills. He would also turn his head to the side looking through the part in the hair etc. I have tried mouse moose sp? and hairspray on Roger recently, it works for a little while and then over a day or so the hair falls again. One person said they braid the hair, I am going to try that as soon as it gets long enough. My fear is it will crimp the hair. In the end if this drives me crazy Roger is going back to being a labrador.
Isn't life funny, or is it that we just like to laugh. |
Clyde whacks into stuff all the time too and he also hates having any clips or elastic, not to mention that he's a boy and it kills my boyfriend to see him like that 
I didn't want to cut his hair either and one day he was sitting next to me in the bathroom while I was getting ready to go out. I was using a good spray wax to flip my hair up and had a brainstorm. I covered his eyes and sprayed the front of his hair, spiked it up with my hand and hit it for a few seconds with the blow dryer. The wax has really held up well. I did it about 5 days ago and though it isn't as cool and spiky as it was originally, it's still well out of his eyes-- kind of like a visor. The nice thing about the wax is that if you get your hand just a little bit wet and run it over the hair, it'll pop right back up again but it also washes out very easily. Even though it's a human product, he can't lick it since it's essentially on his forehead. However, I should note that I have no intention of showing Clyde and I have no idea if using wax has any weird long term effect on the fur. It doesn't seem like it does and he doesn't hit his head on the coffee table constantly anymore! |
| I would be suprised if the wax had an ill effect to. I have never heard of srpay wax. What brand do you use and where did you or can you get it. This is sounding good to me. A product that will keep the hair back off show and wash out for the show. |
| The brand that I use is made by Tigi and it's called Headbanger spray wax. It's a pretty good human product and you can get it at almost any salon or beauty supply store that carries Tigi stuff. It comes in a funky bright orange aerosol can. I think it's about $12 give or take. It's pretty nice though because it has a nice smell and it's very light. Plus, it's not stiff and won't get flaky or anything.
I was thinking about something though. Clyde's only 5 months old and still has his puppy coat so it may not be quite as effective on thicker, heavier hair. You may just have to use a little more and keep the blow dryer on it a little longer. Also, once you have the hair where you want it, use the cool shot button the blow dryer to "freeze" it in place. It cools the wax and makes it stay longer. Either way, it's not a super expensive product so it might be worth a try. Good luck! |
| I think it's a shame that OES are so groomed for the showring. I wish they could look natural and be judged more against the breed standard than who can rat the head best. I've been to shows where the groomers have more junk than a beauty shop, and chalk and powder where they aren't supposed to. Unless it's very obvious most judges don't say anything. |
bestdogsx4 wrote: I think it's a shame that OES are so groomed for the showring. I wish they could look natural and be judged more against the breed standard than who can rat the head best. I've been to shows where the groomers have more junk than a beauty shop, and chalk and powder where they aren't supposed to. Unless it's very obvious most judges don't say anything.
Handlers/owners groom the dogs, from a visual aspect, to accentuate what the dog has, and to hide what the dog doesn't have (big head, small head, small neck, thick chest, etc). A true judge will see through the "window dressing", see and feel what is truely under all that hair, watch the gate of the dog, and rate the dog against the standard. But each judge has his or her own opinion on what the focus of the standard is. Check out any of the Ms. America-like pagents. There is enough glue, tape, make-up and hairspray around there to put and body-shop to shame. Making anything as polished as you can to sell is human nature. Being the same model and brand, you would choose the clean car over the dirty car on the lot. At the show stage,these dogs are so close to the OES standard, and outside what each judge likes to favor, what can make each fur-ball stick out is the eye-candy. The grooming process and results of a show-style OES is part of the game, and part of the fun. |
| My personal opinionis: I prefer the more natural look that the poofy look, which is fairly new. The sheepdog that won Best in Show at Westminster in 1975 had a natural look. Wanna see?
Here's a great pic. If you want to see another, you can click on "Previous" to see another scan. It's not that I dislike the frilly look... I think it's very cute and very huggable. I can't imagine a Bobtail looking like that in the field, so to me, it just doesn't look right. I can't imagine a border colllie or an afghan all teased and frilled up either.* Maybe some day a spectacular OES dog and his/her owner/handler will decide, after winning a few big events, to go natural, and see what the response is. After all, if it's true that the teasing shouldn't make a difference in the judging, the dog should continue to win anyway, right? *I know there's a big controversy in the BC world about AKC's ongoing attempt to bring BCs into the Club for a show standard. PS I am a total ignoramus when it comes to the show world... I'm just spouting off my 2 mils worth (that's .2 cents). |
| El Gato- I agree with you(the body shop part was hilarious ) IIt's only my opinion about the grooming. |
Quote: My personal opinionis: I prefer the more natural look that the poofy look, which is fairly new. The sheepdog that won Best in Show at Westminster in 1975 had a natural look.
Ron, Remember that while those scans show Dudley "au naturel" when he stepped into the ring he was trimmed and groomed "to the nines". The inside cover of John Mandeville's The Complete Old English Sheepdog reprint's Dudley's WESTMINSTER BIS photo and he was groomed to perfection. I personally met Dudley a few times at shows before he "took off" and he was always prepared to perfection and sorry, it wasn't a "natural cut" at all. As excellent a dog as he was he wouldn't have been Canada's All Breeds #1 dog in 1974 if he wasn't so meticulously prepared!! That being said grooming styles have changed from the mid-seventies and the dogs are now much more "sculpted", especially around the neck and shawl area. This is in large part due to the exhibitor wanting to accentuate the dog's neck length and topline. If one looks at this critically it is actually a natural evolution being driven by generally higher quality dogs getting closer and closer to the standard. As the breeders develop better and better examples of the breed they are converging on a few "themes" and there is little to "readily" distinguish one from another, certainly within each theme. To gain an advantage exhibitors must accentuate every positive aspect of their dog and there are very few ways to do this. As such fundamentally similar dogs (and this IS a great testament to the capabilities of the better breeders) end up being presented in very similar ways that are inevitably quite different from the "au naturel" look. As a matter of fact the first time Virgil was shown by a handler against other OES Michele couldn't tell which was Virgil, I had to look really close as well - Sorry Virgy Vu! Thanks and Cheers Carl |
| Maybe you can start up a renegade show circuit:
"Get that brush away from me, I'm a dog darn it!" Dog Show 
My guy would win after a Saturday at the dog park. |
| That could be pretty funny . No baby powder or hairsprayYEA!!!!
We could expand from that and see who can drink the most water with the least amount dripping off the beard(Mine would lose) |
Carl Lindon wrote: Remember that while those scans show Dudley "au naturel" when he stepped into the ring he was trimmed and groomed "to the nines". The inside cover of John Mandeville's The Complete Old English Sheepdog reprint's Dudley's WESTMINSTER BIS photo and he was groomed to perfection. I did NOT know that! If you can scan that and send it in, I'll post it... sadly, but with full retraction!
Now here's a question: I understand from OES-L that the handler, Malcolm Fellows, formerly of Canada, now resides in Alabama. Anyone know if he's still involved in the show dog world, especially OES? |
| Ron,
I'll scan the page tonight and send it to you with the copyright information. (I hope that will make it legal to post.) I'll check with Diane if Malcom is still involved with showing or if he is truly "retired". Thanks and Cheers Carl |
| Regarding hair over the eyes, Frazzle has his hair trimmed around his eyes, but you have to look very closely to tell that it has been trimmed. Whoever did it did a great job, he still has the shaggy OES look, however you can see his eyes. It is an adorable look. LOL |
| Hi Willowsprite-
If permission granted from the owner, would love to see a picture of Frazzle, with the trim over the eyes. We are looking for a new option as Bogarts hair is so thick. Thanks... |
| I don't have a digital camera at the moment, but I will be borrowing one, and taking as many pics as possible of all three. You'll probably be sick of them in no time! LOL
I will get some pics of Frazzle's eyes specifically so you can see what I mean, it really is a fantastic job. |
| Thank you, always appreciate your assistance !!
We need our guy to have clear vision, with sheepie style!! Looking forward to pictures of your sheepies and their guest !!! |
Dudley in full fluff
From "The Complete Old English Sheepdog" by John Mandeville, Howell Book House Inc., First Edition second printing 1976. It's a little hard to see Dudley, so I tried to play around with the levels on the picure. |
Maggie also ran full speed head first into the brick wall at the front of our house and she let out a terrible yelp - she really hurt herself and that night I trimmed her hair so she could see. I would expect that the hair over the eyes could in some instances cause accidents although being a puppy .....even if she could see, she may have ran into the wall anyway  |
| Bringing up an OLD thread as it came up in a search that I was doing and made me think. And we all know where that can lead... anyway, Ron posted a couple of sketchy photos of Dudley. I found a really nice one in color.  I also found one of the 1914 Westminster BIS. Not the best quality, but still a good photo.  What I find interesting about these two photos is that in my opinion, there is less difference between these 2 dog's grooming that were 61 years apart than what you see between the photo of Dudley and what we're seeing in the ring now a much shorter 37 years later. Like I said, it just made me think. Vance |
| Hi vance unfortunately "Dudley" in his past presentation is still over trimmed as far as a world wide standard is concerned still presented today. If you look at "Europe, Oz, NZ etc" not even now so sculptured as far as scissoring and product in coat is done there. Ooops maybe I am starting a WWW War on sheepies  Sorry USA so over trimmed some look like Bichons in the mane around there heads and the rest of there coats as well.   |
| In the UK they are trying to go the way of the US but as far as I know all OESD clubs in the uk don't want this too happen. |
 Georgi at cruffs. Not trimmed but back combing is yes but no products bar brush/comb & hands |
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