Growling if touched while dozing & other issues
My spouse has had an OES before - Romi, whom I never met, was a sweet-natured and submissive female that had to be euthanized due to hip dysplasia 7 years ago. I of course read about the breed, but didn't expect much problems, as my spouse already had years of experience with an OES, and I had previously helped train a belgian (groenendael) shepherd with dominance and anxiety issues. Oh boy, were we in for a surprise... Rohjo is a 6 month old unneutered male. His breeder considers him the most promising of the litter, though she knows we bought him primarily as pet, not for showing. We agreed with the breeder that if Rohjo develops well we will take him to a few shows, so he can be used for breeding. (There aren't that many OES bloodlines in our country - Finland - so every show-quality dog is valuable and shouldn't be neutered too early.) For a few months now it has been clear that Rohjo is much more dominant than Romi ever was. Part of it is of course due to the fact that he is a) male, b) unneutered and c) 6 months old  . But there are a few problems I'm not sure how I should deal with.
In addition to guarding resources (which we are working with, using the trading game), he has in these past days begun to guard-bark at people and cars that pass our house. This behavior has escalated quickly, as last week it was only the occasional "boff", and now it's loud barking, with some howling sounds in between. We have sometimes blocked him from the hallway leading to the front door, to keep him from hearing the outside noises. He also likes to sleep at the front door. This might be because it's the coolest place in the house - or it might be because he feels he must protect us. (The groenendael I helped train did this too, and his problems lessened considerably when he was no longer allowed to guard the door.) A bigger problem was made clear this morning. We noted a few times during the past month that he seemed to go for my spouses hand when she was tying up his bangs. It was worrying, but as he did not growl or make contact, we assumed it was play. Then he did it to me a few times, and I responded with "NO". Yesterday evening, as I petted his side as he was dozing, he half rose and went for my hand with a growl. I responded with a loud "NO", but then let him be. Today, I tested him again, as he was dozing. I lightly petted his rear with my foot, and his head turned so sharply that I started. After a "NO", I waited for a while and then tried it again. This time he turned with a growl. I immediately responded with a firm "NO", but didn't touch him again. He has been healthy, but we have scheduled for a vet after christmas. This might of course be caused by pain, but I think it's more likely that he is challenging us, telling us not to touch him while he sleeps (in addition to not touching while he eats or has a rawhide bone). I'm not entirely sure how firmly we should stop this. He should of course be allowed some peace - but he has a place under our bed where he can sleep without interruption. In the middle of the kitchen floor is not the place where he can doze off with us unable to touch him. I've of course contacted the breeder for advice, but she is currently very busy with a national show, so I decided to see if people on this forum might have some quick tips. I'm unsure if I should keep touching him when he sleeps, or to just let him be. If this escalates as fast as the car-barking, next week we won't be able to walk past him while he sleeps! I've tried to keep my position as alpha clear, but it seems Rohjo is challenging me harder every day. We will continue the obedience class in January, but seeing all the other dogs there makes him go nuts with joy, so I feel we don't accomplish much there. There are no professional trainers or behaviorists in our area, so I'll have to deal with this by myself, using phone consultation, internet and books. Any help is greatly appreciated! -Linma |
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Linma wrote: For a few months now it has been clear that Rohjo is much more dominant than Romi ever was. Part of it is of course due to the fact that he is a) male, b) unneutered and c) 6 months old
. But there are a few problems I'm not sure how I should deal with. -Linma Hi, Linma. Intact and male does not a dominant dog make. More typically in the OES lines I know well, the males are less "dominant". true lovebug pushovers and so easy to live with. A "dominant" dog (or bitch) is a dominant dog, period. These are the ones who may benefit from being neutered, but testosterone doesn't make them that way, though it may fuel some of their unfortunate behavior. The temperamentally soundest male OES I've ever met have inevitably been intact. Then again, they were also bred for sound temperament, so perhaps that's a chicken-egg argument. As for getting him vet checked, that is very smart. He doesn't seem to have a terribly distinct pain pattern from what you described. The snapping when awakened is *sometimes* seen with deaf dogs. Do you have BAER testing in Finland? Or if it's generalized pain, in this breed doing a preliminary hip x-ray to rule out serious early onset hip problems would be another way to go. That would be my bigger guess if pain is the main issue. Some OES have behavioral issues due to being hypothyroid. Or at least it appears that way since putting them on meds (if they test low) some times makes the aggressive behavior diminish or dissappear. I don't know that this is a terribly common cause. But then again I don't know how many think to test for it either. The cases I do know of seem to have related more to other dogs than people. Given his age, I really think this would be a long shot and the last thing I'd be concerned about right now, but I'm mentioning it anyway. You may also want to have his eyesight checked. (The growling when a hand approaches his head made me think of that). To be honest, if there is a medical foundation, hips would be my main suspect. You're smart to get him checked out. The fact that there are so few OES in Finland is not an overhelming argument in and of itself that a dog must be considered for breeding since Finnish breeders are not limited to the gene pool in your country, but instead regularly cooperate with other European breeders and even North American and Australian ones as well. That said, you could have gotten the pushiest dog in the litter and maybe you're very sweet and kind people and he quickly learned that he can get what he wants by using his teeth. But based on what you're describing (how to deal with resource guarding etc) it sounds like you have a very good grasp on dealing with issues in dogs, so that brings us back to is this(if not in pain) just a very hardheaded bugger? Hopefully his breeder can shed some light on the line in this regard. Pushy dogs, as you probably already know, need a very consistent and pretty strict regime while trying to avoid outright confrontation. They are not given a lot of liberties but instead have to work hard to earn them. The good news is his age as this is usually around the time you first truly start seeing these kinds of behaviors emerge, so you have the best chance of nipping them in the bud. For now, just like you blocking off the door area so he doesn't have a chance to carry on there (smart), can you try to limit where he can sleep so you're not putting yourself on the path of inevitable confrontation? Does he have a crate? Kristine |
| Kristine has given you very good advice. The one thing I will stress again is that being a male should not be a given for being dominant. I would expect this more in at bitch than a dog. The boys, if everything is ok healthwise, are true push-overs. I realize you have been in touch with your breeder & she is busy but no breeder should be too busy to help in a case such as this. Continue to try to contact your breeder. Get some advice over the phone from her for now but I would advise having her see your boy in person as soon as possible to assess the situtation. The sooner the better so you can not be blamed for bringing on the behaviors. Unfortunately sometimes there are dogs born that just are not "wired" correctly.
One other thing I thought of (in the deep recesses of my mind  )... are you feeding your boy enough? Is he underweight at all? I do remember one of our boys, years ago, expressing some unusual behaviors similar to these & when we got to see him first hand he was about 15 LBS. UNDER weight! Once we got the weight back on him & he realized he didn't have to worry about not having enough to eat, he turned around. The owners were following their vet's advice at the time to keep him on the low side of the scale for weight to prevent CHD!!!!! As you know, that doesn't prevent CHD, it just helps if the condition is present. |
| My first thought was hearing test - glad to see Kristine brought it up too.
Sounds like a full vet work up is due, but I agree an intact male does not equate with dominance and grumpiness - my experience is females excel at that. I also would reiterate what Kristine said about using a temperamental dog for breeding. do you know anything about his line? |
My puppy, 6 mos. Dec 30, male, intact, =Sweet  I agree with the others, a vet visit is a must. Hopefully after the visit you can find the root of this problem. And I would still try to get a hold of the breeder and see if she has had any other pups in her line with the same behaviors and reactions. I hope your little guy will be fine very soon.  |
| Chauncey was a grumpy, stubborn male puppy. He didn't like to cuddle, and was resistive to training. He was negative for everything but being hardheaded and dominant per our vet and a personal trainer/behaviorist. He was quite the little nipper. We tried all of the advice but in the end it seen more like he just matured.
Thankfully he out grew that at about 12 months, and as far as being the most lovable dog it happened at about 18 months. He now has a wonderful quirky, fun personality and is never far from our lap or in the middle at night. It really seemed like the light just came on at about 18 months. |
| Have you had him since he was a young pup?
(not that he is an old pup) If he is deaf, it may just be a learning process for you both! Our first deaf gal was at least 6 when we got her and you could not wake her without a "startle" Our deaf puppy is totally fine and has never nipped (not saying he doesn't puppy chew! )
My thoughts and experience when waking him rub slowly on his side and work up..... I would also certainly get him into obedince classes... That is the biggest key! |
| Each dog is an individual... they have their own quirks. And it's true... "male" doesn't mean dominant or aggressive. Mine's around 7 months old now and he's a fun and funny boy. It may just be this individual dog's disposition.
Quote: I'm not entirely sure how firmly we should stop this.
Try to find a compromise so you won't have to force the dog to do anything. I'm real big on bribes... I even use them when I give allergy shots to 3 of mine, when they need a bath and to be dried, getting a blood draw at the vet... they all know that if they comply, they'll get a treat for being good. Your boy is growling now and giving you fair warning that he doesn't like what's being done... you don't want to push him beyond this point to a bite so find another way to get the job done. Is he food-motivated? If not, you might consider cutting back on his kibble a bit and use food rewards throughout the day to encourage him to work with you. Like when you lift his bangs... have a treat in your hand when you do it. Tie his hair up every morning so he can see his world or when someone approaches... it may help to eliminate some of the startle reflex. They need to be able to see. When you gently try to awaken him, have a treat near his nose. And don't use just a run of the mill treat either... select a fabulous treat that he only gets on special occasion. Maybe cooked chicken, chicken gizzard, liver, beef, etc. Be careful though... only you know how close you can be so you won't provoke a bite. The idea is to get him to look forward to this interaction. Also consider using a crate... when you see him lying down on the floor, take a treat and say "kennel up" or whatever (we use night-night) to get him out of your way. We did this from day one with our boy and he eagerly complies. If you feed all meals in the crate he'll look at the crate as a good thing. Make him sit before giving him anything. Never use the crate as punishment. You'll need to work on the food aggression outside the crate... he needs to see your hand approaching his food bowl as a "good" thing... that even tastier food will be in your hand. Good luck to you and your boy. |
I have an entire 10 month old male and he is the biggest wooz and gentle lump around the house with a housefull of bitches who are more bossier 
Rule out all possible medical things firstly, that is definately have his hearing checked to make sure he is hearing in Both ears, get a Juvenile pre eye exam done too to rule out any sight problems. Also a blood draw for Thyroid testing to make sure he is in the normal levels. All these conditions are known health problems and listed in the breed. Have a pre-exam (X-ray) done on the hips to rule out maybe a problem there also, young for that at the moment so just get the vet to x-ray for a look to see no problems might be developing for HD, then have another at the appropriate age for scoring and registering on your European Hip register. If all checks out with no medical issues contributing to his behaviour, then start back at basic training, go back to obedience class, most important is learning to controll him around other dogs as your little man is going to turn into a Big man & get him socialised with other dogs, out and about in all situations and start again. He is also coming up to the teenage phase, no longer that baby puppy and sometimes that can be quite a challenging time with them, both male and females, not a gender related issue. So if all checks out medically OK then you need to start again at square one with regular basic socialisation and training. You also need to establish with him the pack order in your house, that is you and your partner come first and he is lower down on the Pyramid
Nothing in life is free, he has to do for treats, that is making him sit, wait then reward him, you eat first then him etc etc to establish in his mind that you are the Alphas of the pack and he comes in under you in the household order.
Also did you get the chance to see the Dam and Sire of him and how was there temperament? I truly believe that is passed on as well to the progeny. |
'A happy dog is a good behaving dog', said somebody and it is hard to disagree. I had the problem with the little cutee you can see in the picture. She is a sergeant - likes everybody to behave and she took after her grandma in this. But I had to teach her that I am the one who establishes the code of behavior. At teenage period she tried to dominate me. I asked an advice from an owner of a SRO's - a notoriously aggressive breed. He told me that I shouldn't forget that dogs are the wolf's relatives with all rules of pack behavior and that I was dealing with a sheepdog - big, strong and with the guarding instinct. The advice was to give her a good slap when she tries me. So I did, but it didn't help, quite the reverse, it triggered more aggression. She much better behaved when I tried to convince her - she has a strong sence of justice  . But her showing the teeth at me was unacceptable.Then my friend advised if she growles at me, at once push her down and press to the ground with all my weight to show her that I was stronger. And I should do it while she was still small and I could hold her with my weight. It helped ! Though a couple of times I had to do it right on the street. Imagine looks from the people around Then I had a problem with guarding food from my two cats who grew up with a very friendly dog. While doing that she bit me accidentally, but badly. I gave her a good shake at the collar and scolded her - no dangerous problem since. Next time I had to put some force at work after I got married and my doggy tried to show that she is in upper position than my husband - a newcomer in our pack. He tried to befriend her - didn't help. I scolded her - didn't work. So I told him I wouldn't mind him to slap her. Now they are the best friends. Some people would say that it was cruelty, it actually was not because she was not really hurt. Dogs fight each other to show who is an 'A' in the pack and they think biting owners is the very right thing to do trying to dominate. So, sometimes we should fight back to prove our position. Treats is a good thing in usual circumstances, but some dogs think if we share food with them we are on lower grade. Good luck with your puppy, hope there is no any health problems and it is just noughty teenage behavior. |
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