Who Will Win the 2008 U.S. Presidential Election?

Obama or McCain?

This isn't about what party you are, doesn't have to be a debate, just who you think will pull through?



I'm saying Obama
Respond to this topic here on forum.oes.org  
i think its too early to tell what with the volatility in the market and the no holds barred dirty campaigning.
Whoever wins...it is history in the making!!!!!!!
Well, i don't think anyone can tell... I'm just saying what's your gut? :twisted:

I'm inundated with emails, youtube videos, etc from the in-laws.

Then knowing that their completely conservative neighborhood has nothing but Obama signs "finally" did it for me.
This site is the funniest thing I've ever seen.

http://www.palinaspresident.com/

Click on EVERYTHING you can esp. the phone, baby names, top of curtains, cabinets of desk, computers, light switch, etc. :lol:
I hope we can keep this post bloodless.

I believe that Obama will win.
Tasker's Mom wrote:
I hope we can keep this post bloodless.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Joahaeyo wrote:
This site is the funniest thing I've ever seen.

http://www.palinaspresident.com/

Click on EVERYTHING you can esp. the phone, baby names, top of curtains, cabinets of desk, computers, light switch, etc. :lol:


ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just realized if it shows something different in the closet each time you click on it (3 times) and then bambi dies.
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TOOOOOOOOOOO FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Too funny-- and Obama.
Ha ha ha. That was funny. I liked the dinosaur. And the name Cashew.
I'm still writing in Bob Barr's mustache. I encourage all of you to do the same. I think you'll find it will be the best choice in the end.

Image
Very funny site.

Based on what I hear out and about (and from the guy who fixed the tear I managed to put in my floor), I'm going to say Obama.
ButtersStotch wrote:
I'm still writing in Bob Barr's mustache. I encourage all of you to do the same. I think you'll find it will be the best choice in the end.

Image


What can Bob Barr's mustache do for us, as a nation?
Funny site, thanks. Can I vote "No" and "Hell No?" Don't think that will be on the ballot.
barney1 wrote:
ButtersStotch wrote:
I'm still writing in Bob Barr's mustache. I encourage all of you to do the same. I think you'll find it will be the best choice in the end.

Image


What can Bob Barr's mustache do for us, as a nation?


The question is not what the mustache can do for you, it is what you can do for the mustache.
Shave it! Hate to kiss bristles. Also he has lips, he doesn't have to pretend unlike MDH.
SheepieBoss wrote:
Shave it! Hate to kiss bristles. Also he has lips, he doesn't have to pretend unlike MDH.


Is that a death threat to Bob Barr's mustache? Alert the secret service!
barney1 wrote:
SheepieBoss wrote:
Shave it! Hate to kiss bristles. Also he has lips, he doesn't have to pretend unlike MDH.


Is that a death threat to Bob Barr's mustache? Alert the secret service!


Tasker's Mom wrote:
...I hope we can keep this post bloodless.
I believe that Obama will win.


I was hoping you'd get your bloodless thread, but I guess not, so I decided to respond. :wink:

McCain.
"I was hoping you'd get your bloodless thread, but I guess not, so I decided to respond. " :wink:

McCain
````````````
or
Obama

Wrong answer



Who Will Win the 2008 U.S. Presidential Election?

Tina Fay!
:lol:

:sidestep: :sidestep: :sidestep:
That is tooo tooo funny omg Love the politics for dummies book!!! "uh oh where'd russia go?"
Check out the site if you haven't since I posted it. There are more, and the closet door has endless things if you keep going back. :lol:
My motto is VOTE EARLY - VOTE OFTEN!! :D

North Carolina has "no excuse absentee" voting which started week before last and runs through this Saturday. I voted on Friday. :P

I think it will be close, but I'm hoping McCain wins.
Beaureguard's Mom wrote:
.....I think it will be close, but I'm hoping McCain wins.


Good girl. :wink: :D
Beaureguard's Mom wrote:
My motto is VOTE EARLY - VOTE OFTEN!! :D

North Carolina has "no excuse absentee" voting which started week before last and runs through this Saturday. I voted on Friday. :P

I think it will be close, but I'm hoping McCain wins.



:D :wink:
Do realize that McCain is one heart attack away from being dead? Guess who would be president then.

Obama.

I also find it interesting that whoever wins(Obama) will be history. Hmmm that doesn't sound good. Howabout "making history"
Simon's Mom wrote:
Do realize that McCain is one heart attack away from being dead? Guess who would be president then.


I think we're all one heart attack away from being dead 8)
barney1 wrote:
Simon's Mom wrote:
Do realize that McCain is one heart attack away from being dead? Guess who would be president then.


I think we're all one heart attack away from being dead 8)


well one major heart attack at least :0

Remember on West WIng when John GOodman played the acting president and made the statement - Look at me, I am just one prime rib dinner away....
If I recall, they made Goodman a real patriot in that show -- basically gave up his speakership of the house to preside as President and run the country for a day, or something like that?
I'd be stoked to have Palin as President!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not knocking on wood McCain dies though. Guess it doesn't matter "this time around" b/c Obama's going to win.
skip
Just got a newsletter that Palin will be at our church this sunday. Almost makes us want to fly back to AK to be there. :roll: :P
Joahaeyo wrote:
I'd be stoked to have Palin as President!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Really?
To me she comes off at best as completely uninformed of national issues, and very much a lightweight as a politician. I quake in my boots imagining her squaring off vs. Valdimir Putin.

I would much rather have any of the other candidates for President in any of the Republican or Democrat primaries in that position.

I'm sorry, but I don't want "the Today Show's Katie Couric trying to follow Dan Rather" calling the shots. Perhaps after a few more years of national exposure, a World Civ class or two and perhaps a stint as a Senator or Representative, and after she starts to behave like a serious adult then I could vote for her.

I wouldn't vote for Richard Simmons for president, either.
Have all of you Obama supporters heard the 2001 NPR radio interview where Obama says that the government didn't go far enough to redistribute wealth during the civil rights movement? Sorry, but in my opinion I pay enough taxes already.

It's Bob Barr's mustache for me.
Bailey's Mom wrote:
Have all of you Obama supporters heard the 2001 NPR radio interview where Obama says that the government didn't go far enough to redistribute wealth during the civil rights movement? Sorry, but in my opinion I pay enough taxes already.

It's Bob Barr's mustache for me.


Woo hoo! We CAN make a difference!
The youtube recordings I listened to were heavily edited, with some pretty heavy handed wording printed over claiming that Obama said something that I just heard he did NOT say.

What I did hear him talk about was how during the civil rights movement, courts redistributed power and rights--and that the courts were not comfortable deciding who should pay for changes (i.e. school desegregation) and that this (actual payment for needed changes in such cases) was a task that was more of an administrative task rather than a judicial task.

Was there more? I didn't hear the original 2001 broadcast so it is possible that he actually used the terms redistribute the wealth and that those words simply were not audible on the youtube recordings. Perhaps those words were left off the recordings I listened to on youtube. I strongly suspect that if he actually uttered the words 'redistribute the WEALTH' that those would have been present on youtube.

McCain and Obama both claim that their tax plans would include tax breaks for the middle class. Tax analysts say that either tax plan would cost much more than either candidate is claiming.
I read the actual transcript of what he said, he DID NOT SAY redistribute the wealth, he was talking about other resources. The McCain ads edited his statement and used lines out of context, in other words... the McCain campaing LIED.
Ron wrote:
Joahaeyo wrote:
I'd be stoked to have Palin as President!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Really?
To me she comes off at best as completely uninformed of national issues, and very much a lightweight as a politician. I quake in my boots imagining her squaring off vs. Valdimir Putin.

I would much rather have any of the other candidates for President in any of the Republican or Democrat primaries in that position.

I'm sorry, but I don't want "the Today Show's Katie Couric trying to follow Dan Rather" calling the shots. Perhaps after a few more years of national exposure, a World Civ class or two and perhaps a stint as a Senator or Representative, and after she starts to behave like a serious adult then I could vote for her.

I wouldn't vote for Richard Simmons for president, either.


Watching national news I wouldn’t vote for Palin either.

She had a two week crash course in financial markets, international affairs, federal taxes and other presidential issues. After her crash course she was given another crash course in what she was allowed to say on John McCain behalf.

Here is the hockey mom from Alaska.

Fed up with the horrible education system she went from PTO mom to city council. After that mayor. As mayor she learned about budgets, business development, and how a government should work.

GOV Merkowski appointed her to the Energy Board. …realizing the hardest problem to deal w/was political corruption. She ended up calling out Dem&Rep who were cheating the state out of oil & natural gas revenues. GOV Merkowski and/or the state legislature failed to do anything about the corruption so she made it public and resigned.

She ran against GOV Merkowski AND beat him in the primaries 3 to 1. People were fed up w/Merkowski over corruption.

As Governor
* She sold the Governor’s airplane, and she flies Alaska Airlines. She forced the state legislature to prosecute the officials named in corruption.
* Her first budget presented to her was filled w/wasteful spending, so she cut half of the items out of the budget, and gave the budget back to the legislature to fix.
* AK has had an oil pipeline for decades. …no natural gas pipeline. She created the Alaska Gasline Inducement Act that would private industries build a pipeline. TransCanada bid on it based on the terms of the act. Conoco & BP bid, but not under the AGIA guidelines. She told them to get packing.

What I want as a president
* First, knowing the cabinet has experts, I’m aware the Pres just gives guidance and makes tough decisions. Just like a CEO. CEO of HP doesn’t have to know how to build a computer on the first day of work. They just have to know where to get their information from and who they can turn to for solid advice. Presidents don’t make laws …just sign them. They don’t make budgets …they just propose them.
* I want a president that sticks to their beliefs. She has ALWAYS been politically pro-life. When she was told her child would have Down Syndrome, she didn’t have an abortion.
* I want a president who isn’t afraid to go to war, but won’t go to war just to flex. She has a son serving in Iraq. Don’t think she will be invading any country over questionable evidence any time soon. Yet she is probably a better marksman than Mr. J (who of course served, used his weapon, and had to qualify his weapon).
* I want a president who has been successful in working with private industry to find new sources of energy and get it to the people. Energy will be the crisis of the 21st century.
* I want a president who is knows what real America is like. Someone who has a white trash brother-in-law, someone who had to work to pay bills, someone who had kids in public schools.
* I want a president who ran for political office to fight incompetence & corruption, not someone who has taken a specific path in their life just to make it to the White House.

I do generally agree with the Katie Couric/Dan rather analogy you used for MANY reasons, some I'm not in the mood to go into (but they're for religious reasons), but I guess I can see her as President for the simple reason: Can you see Obama as President? I know the highway goes both ways, ...but that's where this chica is coming from. :) Whew...
Mrs. J, I think you are my new best friend.

I hate talking politics. Mainly because I am ignorant when it comes to politics. But, I know what I expect from the leaders of my country, and what kind of country I would like to live in. Mrs. J, you and I are on the same page chica :wink: .
Quote:
She had a two week crash course in financial markets, international affairs, federal taxes and other presidential issues. After her crash course she was given another crash course in what she was allowed to say on John McCain behalf.


This, imo, is not nearly enough. And worse, Palin doesn't seem to realize that it isn't. Now, of course all I know about Palin is from national media.

I wish that Obama had more experience as a U.S. Senator, but he seems to have spent his time learning as much as possible about international and national issues.

As for Palin knowingly giving birth to a child who has Downs? I have several friends with children who have profound disabilities, including one whose son (not the most disabled) has Downs. She is pro-choice, as are some of the other parents with disabled children. None of them see themselves as heroic or saintly or anything other than parents who are doing what all of us do: their best for their children. This, btw, includes advocating for their children with a ferocity that would make any hockey mom quake in her boots.
I agree with almost all that you said Mrs. J., but I want a President who actually cared enough about the world to know something about it before she was tapped to be the VP candidate, and needing a crash course in world affairs. And the new CEO of HP wasn't the head of the legal department the year before. It takes time to understand how all the pieces of the world fit together and that's the piece she seems to be sorely missing as a head-in-the-permafrost governor.

I think that's an overriding issue for me. But there's more.

2 or 3 weeks ago, given our financial crisis and the obvious direction of the Palin nomination, Senator McCain should have asked her to step aside in favor of Mitt Romney. It could have been presented as Palin stepping down so that Romney could step in to comfort the country and help guide the campaign and recovery effort.

Since he didn't do that, and since he made the choice in the first place I now realize that Senator McCain will be as obdurate in the face of changing circumstances as our current incumbent President. We can't have in our next President the kind of stubbornness and inflexibility that led to keeping Donald Rumsfeld in power and in charge of a poor strategy.

You'd have loved that move too, Mrs. J.!

So while I began this season heavily leaning towards Senator McCain, I am now very heavily leaning towards Senator Obama. In addition to the anti-McCain reasons I like the message(s) that electing Senator Obama will send to the world. He's a brilliant guy and politician, and he inspires people. If he wins the election, I hope he wins with a landslide mandate and leads in the manner of Ronald Reagan. I further hope that he will inspire our fellow Americans to greatness and a national spirit of achievement to tackle some very large issues.
Ron, I agree with all you said. AMEN!!!!!
Ron wrote:
I agree with almost all that you said Mrs. J., but I want a President who actually cared enough about the world to know something about it before she was tapped to be the VP candidate, and needing a crash course in world affairs. And the new CEO of HP wasn't the head of the legal department the year before. It takes time to understand how all the pieces of the world fit together and that's the piece she seems to be sorely missing as a head-in-the-permafrost governor.

I think that's an overriding issue for me. But there's more.

2 or 3 weeks ago, given our financial crisis and the obvious direction of the Palin nomination, Senator McCain should have asked her to step aside in favor of Mitt Romney. It could have been presented as Palin stepping down so that Romney could step in to comfort the country and help guide the campaign and recovery effort.

Since he didn't do that, and since he made the choice in the first place I now realize that Senator McCain will be as obdurate in the face of changing circumstances as our current incumbent President. We can't have in our next President the kind of stubbornness and inflexibility that led to keeping Donald Rumsfeld in power and in charge of a poor strategy.

You'd have loved that move too, Mrs. J.!

So while I began this season heavily leaning towards Senator McCain, I am now very heavily leaning towards Senator Obama. In addition to the anti-McCain reasons I like the message(s) that electing Senator Obama will send to the world. He's a brilliant guy and politician, and he inspires people. If he wins the election, I hope he wins with a landslide mandate and leads in the manner of Ronald Reagan. I further hope that he will inspire our fellow Americans to greatness and a national spirit of achievement to tackle some very large issues.


Brilliant summation Ron. The thought of McCain/Palin as the leaders of our country is just plain scarey. I too was not a huge fan of Obama and actually leaned toward McCain after the primaries. But then he chose Palin, a perfectly delightful woman I am sure but not Presidential material.

Palin as VP or God forbid PRESIDENT would set the cause of women's rights back 100 years, I am continually amazed at the number of WOMEN who support her. Perhaps women don't really want to have control of their lives and incomes.

I think Obama has the intelligence, and self control as well as the experience both in the form of personal experience and knowledgable advisors to be head of this country. He has shown great strength and grace during the campaing and I believe that he will be a respected world leader.

I spent much of my life as a Republican and only switched parties during the Bush years. I am ashamed of the way the Republican party has handled this election and although I don't believe the Dems are totally immune from unfair politicing the Republicans have sunk to a new low. There was a very good program a few weeks ago on PBS addressing the issue of "Attack Politics" ( campaigning that address' the issues) versus "Negative Politics" (campaings that are run soley on personal attacks and misrepresentation of facts). The opinion was that the Republicans have reached an all new level of "Negative Politics".

I don't care who's daughter is pregnant or who was a candidates neighbor or aquaintence 10 years ago. I want to know who can run this country. The Obama campaign has doen a much beter job of staying on task and giving me the information I want to know.
I may have to reconsider my support of Bob Barr's mustache.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4WDjuiQmxA
Quote:
As Governor
* She sold the Governor’s airplane, and she flies Alaska Airlines. She forced the state legislature to prosecute the officials named in corruption.

and flies her family around the country at great expense to the State of Alaska.
Bailey's Mom wrote:
I may have to reconsider my support of Bob Barr's mustache.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4WDjuiQmxA


Oh, I agree! 8)
Ron wrote:
I further hope that he will inspire our fellow Americans to greatness and a national spirit of achievement to tackle some very large issues.
If not, maybe we can get someone who can just 4 years from now. ;)
Ron wrote:
.......I like the message(s) that electing Senator Obama will send to the world. He's a brilliant guy and politician, and he inspires people...........I further hope that he will inspire our fellow Americans to greatness and a national spirit of achievement to tackle some very large issues.


What messages would that be?

There are many world leaders that are looking forward to him being elected. They see that as the downfall of America.......... and unfortunately, they'd probably be correct.

The man had the beautiful American flag that was on his plane removed and replaced with "his" symbol. "HE" wants to redistrubute the wealth.

I can't believe that with his 20 year attendance in a church where the minister said, "G_ _ damn America!" that Americans are even considering him for president, let alone considering voting for him over someone that has served this country with honor. That's not a good message to send.

If he didn't believe what that minister was preaching he would've left that church long before he did.

He agrees with partial birth abortion, which is what it says. All but the head is delivered, then the brain is sucked out before removing the head!

If he never showed up to vote before, and if he lied about not accepting all these donations to buy tv time, why would he be telling the truth about anything else?

I can only imagine the message we're sending to the world if he wins.


Below is an email I thought was interesting about spreading the wealth:


Today on my way to lunch I passed a homeless guy with a sign that read "Vote Obama, I need the money." I laughed.

Once in the restaurant my server had on a "Obama 08" tie, again I laughed as he had given away his political preference--just imagine the coincidence.

When the bill came I decided not to tip the server and explained to him that I was exploring the Obama redistribution of wealth concept. He stood there in disbelief while I told him that I was going to redistribute his tip to someone who I deemed more in need--the homeless guy outside. The server angrily stormed from my sight.

I went outside, gave the homeless guy $10 and told him to thank the server inside as I 've decided he could use the money more. The homeless guy was grateful.

At the end of my rather unscientific redistribution experiment I realized the homeless guy was grateful for the money he did not earn, but the waiter was pretty angry that I gave away the money he did earn even though the actual recipient needed money more.

I guess redistribution of wealth is an easier thing to swallow in concept than in practical application.
Bailey's Mom wrote:
I may have to reconsider my support of Bob Barr's mustache.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4WDjuiQmxA


Real nice Sue and Steph. We were just starting to get a following! :twisted:
mouthypf wrote:
Ron wrote:
.......I like the message(s) that electing Senator Obama will send to the world.


What messages would that be?

Well, since you asked:

An America where a man who has lived in and among peoples of different religious backgrounds and even attended church where his pastor verbalized the deep seated resentments still held by many will not be denied the highest office in the land by reason of guilt by association.

An America that has philosophically changed course, and will be an America that can behave like a civilized society and engage those with whom we have differences. An America that doesn't behave as the petulant schoolyard bully but as the even tempered neighborhood peace officer.

An America that can rise above the mud and see herself, as Ronald Reagan liked to say, as a "Shining City on a hill," and elect a man with a call to greatness, national achievement and some personal sacrifice for the common good and not one using words evocative of the cold war to describe his opponent.

That America is the land of high ideals and morals, where even a member of a 12% minority can be elected to govern the country that enslaved his race a mere 140 years ago until we (the victorious Union) fought a war to end that practice. That America can live up to it's ideals and elect a candidate based on the issues of the day and the positions he espouses and not his skin color. That America and our beloved Democracy is still Reagan's and Lincoln's "last best hope of man on earth."

These are the messages I believe that electing Barack Obama as President sends to the world. Are they reason enough to vote for him? For some they may be. They will most likely not be the deciding factor for me. But I like them. Think of them as either an "added bonus" or as "mitigation" depending on which side of ballot you mark.
mouthypf wrote:

There are many world leaders that are looking forward to him being elected. They see that as the downfall of America.......... and unfortunately, they'd probably be correct.



Here's who is endorsing McCain--please be warned--you will not like it at all:

Quote:
Al Qaeda will have to support McCain in the coming election,” read a commentary on a password-protected Islamist Web site that is closely linked to Al Qaeda and often disseminates the group’s propaganda.

The endorsement left the McCain campaign sputtering, and noting helplessly that Hamas appears to prefer Barack Obama. Al Qaeda’s apparent enthusiasm for Mr. McCain is manifestly not reciprocated.

“The transcendent challenge of our time [is] the threat of radical Islamic terrorism,” Senator McCain said in a major foreign policy speech this year, adding, “Any president who does not regard this threat as transcending all others does not deserve to sit in the White House.”

That’s a widespread conservative belief. Mitt Romney compared the threat of militant Islam to that from Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. Some conservative groups even marked “Islamofascism Awareness Week” earlier this month.

Yet the endorsement of Mr. McCain by a Qaeda-affiliated Web site isn’t a surprise to security specialists. Richard Clarke, the former White House counterterrorism director, and Joseph Nye, the former chairman of the National Intelligence Council, have both suggested that Al Qaeda prefers Mr. McCain and might even try to use terror attacks in the coming days to tip the election to him.

“From their perspective, a continuation of Bush policies is best for recruiting,” said Professor Nye, adding that Mr. McCain is far more likely to continue those policies.

An American president who keeps troops in Iraq indefinitely, fulminates about Islamic terrorism, inclines toward military solutions and antagonizes other nations is an excellent recruiting tool.
[/code]
It appears Pam, that you have fallen for all the Republican rhetoric and lies that the McCain campaign has been filling you with. There is not a single statement in your post which has any basis in fact, you are sorely misinformed and perhaps should do your homework a bit better.

Like many fanatical fundamentalist you have made up your facts (or beleived those made oup by others) and decided that if you say them loud and long enough they will be true. Luckily most Americans seem to have better sense than that.

Did you watch him last night? The half hour special showed him to be the true leader that he is, one with a REAL plan, not just negative words.

Perhaps I misunderstand your situation but I assumed that like the majority of us here on the forum (and in the country) your family income was not in excess of 200,000. It certainly isn't my business what your personal income is but if you read his policy statement or watched any of his speaches you would know that there is no "redistribution plan" (a Mcainism) and that families making less than 200,000 will see an automatic tax cut. There is a web site where you can "estimate" you tax savings. Entering my personal information shows that my taxes will be $1000 less under the Obama plan.

Unlike McCain, who has spent the majority of his campaign time simple making things up. Obama has given us real hard information and facts about what he hopes to do in the area of healthcare, education, foreign policy and the economy. Perhaps an affordable education and healthcare are not priorities for you.

I respect the right of anyone to chose the Republican party, if their informed and educated opinion is in support of their policies. Unfortunately many of McCain supporter are like sheep being lead to the slaughter, seizing one issue; THE BIG A to make a knee jerk decision decision for the who will lead the country.

To me it is the ultimate of hypocrisy to stamp your feet about the murder of abortion and then turn around and support hand gun policies that cause the death of thousands of "innocents" and a war that has killed over 4,000.

I have a great deal of respect for McCain, he is a war hero who has served his country well. I might even have voted for him had he spent more campaign time telling us what he plans to do for the country rather than simply spewing untruths about his opponent. All campaigns are nasty but the Republicans have taken this one to a new low and they will lose because of it.

Thanksfully most Americans are smart enough to check the facts.
I just feel that I needed to post.

I am saddened by both presidental candidates.

But I live in Illinois and Obama has not even served a full term as Senator in Illinois. He has not done anything for me as a citizen of Illinois. He did not even concern himself with the tradegy at NIU or show concern in his own home town Chicago when the flooding occured. He was too busy campaigning. I feel how can I trust him when he has not made a good face for the State of Illinois. My life is not any better in any way having him as Senator of Illinois.

And talking about campaign promises, you could write volumes and volumes about how many campaign promises became reality after the candiate became president.
NOT MANY.

I would like to hear from all the people from Arizona and know if McCain has done any good in the State Of Arizona.

I beleive that no matter what party we are affilitated with we should try to
examine all canidates in both parties and vote for those with the most experience even if that candiate is not in the party you prefer.

Mary
thank you ron for your post.

Can I add we will also send a message (contrary to the last election when British headlines read "Duh!! How can 5,xxx,xxx Americans be so Dumb?!") that America has reached a maturity that allows us to see past the 2 second sound bites and vote for a reflective man who knows more about life in America and the world than most of us do? I don't think most Americans fear change as much as they fear electing a man they suspect is smarter than they are.

Asking what he has done for you as a citizen of Illinois implies he has not "redistributed" enough wealth your way - which by the way is the purpose of taxes and something John McCain has practiced for how many years?
Tasker's Mom wrote:
if you read his policy statement or watched any of his speaches you would know that there is no "redistribution plan" (a Mcainism) and that families making less than 200,000 will see an automatic tax cut.
I'm sorry, but increasing the tax rate on people earning more than a certain level at the same time giving a tax cut to those earning under a certain level sounds an AWFUL lot like a redistribution of the wealth to me. What tax rate is "enough" for those at the upper end? 35% of everything they earn? 40%? Half of everything they make?

People earning a very decent amount of money pay absolutely no income taxes; they only pay into their own retirement and retirement health funds. Is that fair? Shouldn't they pay something for the blessings of freedom and democracy?
Hmm, I did not see anything about people making a "decent" amount of money not paying taxes. Perhaps I misunderstood the sentence.

My "observation" is that wealthy people generally pay a lower tax "rate" than those in middle class to lower income. They have the benefit of tax shelters and investments that significantly lower their actual "tax rate".

Case in point, a person I know with an annual income of more than 4 times what I make pays 1/2 the taxes I pay. WHY? They are wealthy enough to sock a substantial amount of money into their 401K, own "investment property" which in addition to income provides them with almost limitless tac deductions as well as having money to move around in other "tax deductible" accounts. Is that fair?

I think it's "Biblical" for you fundys out there, my paraphrase "to those who much is given, much is expected".

If taxes were to be truly "equitable" then we would all be paying a "flat tax"
Tasker's Mom wrote:
If taxes were to be truly "equitable" then we would all be paying a "flat tax"


well I guess that depends on how you define equitable. taxing someone making minimum wage the same as someone making over $250K doesn;t seem equitable to me. but what do I know :)
SheepALot wrote:
I would like to hear from all the people from Arizona and know if McCain has done any good in the State Of Arizona.

Actually, I have a quite a few good stories about McCain, including the one where I sat with him in coach on a Friday night flight back from DC (yes, our senator flew coach on a regular basis before the campaign), and the one where he came out to support his wife Cindy (and the rest of us) when she ran the half marathon after her stroke. The last time he ran for his senate seat, he was going to run unopposed. A schoolteacher decided to run against him to because he though it was important to air of the issues. Even though his opponent had absolutely no chance of winning, McCain treated him as a serious contender and debated him with great respect. He is, as far as I can tell, a good guy.

But I'm not going to discuss actual politics on this board anymore. This thread got ugly a long time ago. Just didn't want you to think that we Arizonans weren't paying attention.

Paris in 2008 :wink:
Thank you for the post, Ron. I agree 100%. As much as we'd like it to be different, the USA does not live and act in a bubble. What we do here in this country has huge ramifications around the world, for better or for worse, so we need to start living up to that responsibility again. If we want to hold ourselves up as some sort of democratic example to the world, then we need to practice what we preach.

One of the things that has really upset me about this election are the careless terms the McCain campaign has been using to define Barack Obama. Socialist. Marxist. Anti-American. Once again, the Bush/Cheney/Rove tactics rear their ugly head - the idea that if you disagree with the Republicans you are unpatriotic, or "if you are not with us, you are against us".

Using the "redistribution of wealth" terminology in order to stir up a Red Scare is rhetoric, nothing more. Let's talk redistribution of wealth. Let's talk about the 5 million people in this country who have slipped below the poverty line since the year 2000. Let's talk about the top 400 people in this country amassing over 600 billion in wealth since Bush took office. Isn't that a redistribution of wealth upwards, to people who need it the least? And McCain wants to give tax breaks to the same corporations who have been shipping our jobs overseas to the tune of just under a million jobs lost this year alone? I voted already, and as you can guess, I proudly cast my vote for Barack Obama.

JMHO

Laurie
In all fairness, I thought he was a socialist way before McCain used that word.

No matter though. Even though I've lost Sue and Steph, my vote is still going to the mustache.
Oscar's Mom wrote:
Let's talk about the top 400 people in this country amassing over 600 billion in wealth since Bush took office. Isn't that a redistribution of wealth upwards, to people who need it the least?
I don't think so... I think that's earning it, not having it taken away at the point of a gun and given away to those who didn't earn it. Now, I don't agree that CEOs should be making the kind of money they're making in the first place, but I don't think our government should be taxing them at an extraordinary rate to address it. I think the laws should be changed so that shareholders can better affect the governance of their corporation(s), which would include the outrageous compensation issues. Then the money instead of going to the CEOs would result in lower prices or larger dividends to the stockholders. Instead of a penalizing-tax approach, this would also allow the people to affect their company's behavior in other ways and perhaps cause these big companies to be more socially responsible. You know, democratic principles vs. a taxing dictatorship approach. ;)

I suppose if you don't want America to be the "land of opportunity" and you want it to be the "land of social welfare" then we should create more and more tax cuts for the "lower end" of the income scale and more and more taxes at the upper end. There aren't enough people or income at the upper end to support everyone, and that 250,000 joint income level (which IIRC was the same starting point as Clinton's "surcharge" to 39.6% in 1993ish) is creeping downwards to you and me as inflation takes it's toll, and has to. In ten or fifteen more years very many couples like Joan and me will be likely be earning $250,000 and will then be included as one of the rich.

Once the social welfare society is in place, EVERYONE'S taxes will go through the roof so that the government can take care of us all. The "rich" don't have enough capital to fund all that people are asking of their government.
About taxes:

Since the start of the federal income tax, the tax has been 'progressive' which means that lower income taxpayers pay a lower percentage than higher income taxpayers. Over time, the federal tax code has become much less progressive.

According to the Tax Foundation (http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html):

In 1913, married couple filing jointly making less than $20,000--including $0 (lowest of 7 tax brackets)payed 1% federal income tax. A married couple filing jointly, earning greater than $500,000 paid 7% federal income tax.

All figures cited below are for married taxpayers, filing jointly

By 1918, many more tax brackets were added, ranging from the lowest (less than $4000) paid 6%. At incomes of $78,000 to $80,000, the federal tax rate was 50%. Yes, that's right: fifty percent. The highest tax bracket, for incomes greater than $1 million: tax rate was 77%.

By 1926, the tax rate for the lowest income bracket (again, under $4000) was 1.5%. For the highest income bracket of greater than $100,000, the tax rate was 25%. I

t remained the same until 1932, when it increased to 4% for the same lowest tax bracket and increased to 63% for the highest of greater than $1 Milllion. The tax rate increased on the highest income brackets (in 1939 it was > $5 Million) to up to 79% (yes, seventy nine percent).

It INCREASED to 91% during the 40's and 50's. for those making more than 200,000 to $400,000 (depending on year) where it remained until 1964: the tax rate on the highest tax bracket (greater than $400,000) dropped to 77%.

From the mid 60's until 1982, the tax rate on the highest income bracket ($200,000--with this level dropping over time) was 70%. In 1982, it dropped to 50% for incomes greater than $86,500. By then, the lowest tax bracket for less than $3,400 with a rate of 0%; greater than $3,400: 11 %.

By 1987, the lowest income tax bracket (earning less than $3,000) paid 11% federal income tax. The highest income tax bracket was greater than $90,000 with a rate of 38.5%.

In 1990, the lowest tax bracket ($0 to $34,000) paid 15% federal income taxes. Those earning more than $162,770 paid 28% in federal income tax.

For 2008, the highest income tax bracket is for greater than $357,700, with a rate of 35%.

State income tax levels vary according to state.

Social Security (or payroll) taxes are regressive--in other words, the same rate applies to the taxpayer, regardless of level of income--that is until the maximum income level allowed by law kicks in. For 2009, the maximum is $106,800.00. For an individual. More than that and you pay no payroll tax. And this applies only to earned income. Income from investments and interest is not taxable by social security. So more wealthy people end up paying a much smaller percentage of their total income in social security taxes than individuals. And of course, if you are self employed, you pay the whole thing yourself--no employer contributions.

Property taxes are generally related to the value of the property and not to the income of the individual (or couple or family).

Sales taxes are regressive: everybody pays the same sales tax on taxable items, regardless of their income.

Generally speaking, lower income people pay a much higher percentage of their income for basic necessities such as shelter, food, transportation. They pay much higher interest rates for loans, if they can get a loan.

Oh, btw, that old socialist, Richard M. Nixon proposed a negative income tax in conjunction with eliminating some welfare programs (since they would be redundant if there was a negative income tax).

Just saying. I have to admit my extreme disgust at the lack of actual news and investigative pieces that are being conducted these days.
Mr. J and I talked politics today after reading all of the posts. Here is what we think. It's long, but after reading so many posts with opposite opinions and there not being many speaking up from where we stand, we decided to post once more...

First, Bush.

We are by no means a Bush lover or supporter, but we feel he has received a bad rap.

Most people will list one of the following reasons why they hate Bush:
Katrina
Iraq
Economy


Katrina
• Failure at the local and state level to improve levies, fix water pumps, and create a disaster response plan.
• Mr. J was in the National Guard in New Orleans. In the 1990s officials were concerned that a hurricane heading toward New Orleans would become a category 3 the levies and pumps wouldn’t work. Katrina was 6-7 years later and nothing was done to fix it the levies or pumps. They both failed.
• The only positive thing from Katrina was the response by the thousands of U.S. Army, Marine, & Coast Guard who were ordered within days to New Orleans. The only reason why there was a lapse in support was the Governor asked George Bush for more time to decide what she needed.

Iraq War
• The US Congress saw the same intelligence provided to George Bush by the CIA. 60% (not sure exact percentage) voted to go to war.
• Much more than 60% of the US public supported that decision at the time w/o seeing the intelligence. If Saddam claimed he had WMD & the intelligence showed it must be true?
• What was the failure:
o Having Donald Rumsfeld as Secretary of Defense.
o Trusting the CIA
o Firing the Iraq Army and all the government workers – all Sunnis. The Sunni insurgency is what the US fought from 2003-2007.
o George Bush failed to convince the public that US would win (and did), and NO MATTER HOW BAD THE DECISION WAS TO GO IN pulling out as Barrack Obama & congress wanted to years ago would have created more American hating terrorists than anyone could have possibly imagine.

Economy
• Under many other presidents our economy would have failed.
• In Bushes 1st year the Twin Towers were destroyed. In a matter of minutes several companies & their employees vanished. The Twin Towers had more zip codes and people than most small cities (7 zip codes & 50,000 people I think). This crushed the stock market, insurance industry, & several small and medium companies. The US economy recovered in less than a year.
• The US fought two wars simultaneously.
• Many medium & large businesses were destroyed in New Orleans or were forced to relocate after Hurricane Katrina. The same was repeated in other areas after Rita, Gustav, Ike and others.
• Something you don’t hear in the media about the big ugly oil companies – 50 multi million dollar platforms were destroyed by Hurricane Ike. 50 more had millions of dollars of damage.
• Speculators drove oil prices sky high crippling many small & medium companies.
• Market regulations written after early stock market crashes were reversed in the late 1990s by Bill Clinton leading to our current mortgage meltdown and current stock market collapse.
• US automakers almost went bankrupt because they continue to fail to build cars that are reliable and fuel efficient.
• Unprecedented pork barrel spending by congress.
Despite all of these events all of our key economic indicators are as high (or will be after the market returns back to normal in the next few weeks or months) as they have ever been




So why does everyone hate Bush? – He sounds like a MORON on TV & went to war in Iraq based on the same faulty information that congress had.



Why is McCain/ Palin the better choice for a conservative?

Spending
• He won’t sign pork barrel bills. Congress will have to learn to budget taxpayers money. Not only has he pledged to not sign bills he has a history of fighting against it.
• Palin refused to sign the Alaska state budget until the legislature cut the budget in half by cutting out all unnecessary spending.

Taxing
• Everyone promises tax cuts & more benefits when they run for office. I don’t believe Obama or McCain will do 50% of anything they have promised.
• The difference is when there is an economic crisis conservatives cut taxes to stimulate the economy while others raise taxes to pay for programs to aid the poor. History has proven tax cuts do more for the economy than tax credits for the poor.

Energy
• There is about to be a serious energy crisis. Our need will only grow w/the population. Has anyone ever seen pictures of ANWR? Palin will convince McCain to drill there. We safely drill in beautiful places like northern New Mexico, Colorado, & Wyoming, but refuse to drill in one of the most barren places on the earth because one type of animal migrates in through it. It is the size of Rhode Island, they can walk around the tiny oil wells.
• Barrack Obama says it would take 10 years to begin production in places like offshore California, Florida, and Alaska. The truth is Mr J’s company could drill a well in 200 foot water depth, build a platform, & build a five mile pipeline before the government would approve it – 6 MONTHS (fact).
• Barrack Obama & the congress say we will just use what we have. There are currently over 3,700 platforms in the Gulf of Mexico between Texas & Alabama. If there is oil or gas there you can guarantee oil companies will find it.
• There has been a crude oil pipeline in Alaska for decades. Not until Sarah Palin was there a natural gas pipeline. It was a win-win deal for the oil companies, & the people of Alaska. The oil companies will be able to get their product to the market at one of the highest tax rates ever - all going to the state of Alaska and a large portion of it send to all the people - equally.
• While you paid through the nose for energy over the last year what did the government do for you? Well, eventually we got a stimulus package despite congress wanting only the poor to get it. The government made billions in tax revenue when they taxed the oil companies at the well and through corporate taxes and then taxed you at the pump. Sarah Palin introduced & signed a bill to give each household 500-1000 dollars back for the year 2008 – this is beyond the Alaska Permanent Dividend Fund.

War
• The war in Iraq is almost over. The government is stabilized, the army is strong, & the people are ready for change. The average life cycle of an insurgency is 12 years. The Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan will be non existent by the end of the next president’s term and that president will take credit for it. Why did the war in Iraq end before the 12 year life cycle? John McCain’s plan for surge allowed troops to help turn the Sunni’s against their own Sunni Al Qaeda.
• History tells us we won’t go to war for the next 15 years after Iraq & Afghanistan because of the political fall out caused by every war. The difference is when we do John McCain will ensure our troops are properly manned and equipped to do it.
• Palin won’t send her son to war unless the security of our nation is in jeopardy.
• In the late 1970’s Carter refused to support the Shaw of Iran politically or militarily because he wouldn’t have a Western style democracy. The Shaw was overthrown by a radical Islamic group. Now Iran is the leading supporter for terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah, Sadr and other Shia extremists in Iraq, and Shia extremist in Afghanistan. The point: listen to what Barrack Obama says about Pakistan. Though a lot of bad things have gone on in the tribal areas of Pakistan, which historically could never be controlled by the government, the government has supported the US efforts in Afghanistan and kept the predominantly Muslim country relatively free from terrorism. See what happens when Barrack cuts off support to Pakistan.

If the McCain camp hadn’t ran the worst presidential campaign in history by trying to damage Obama’s reputation instead of selling the good things McCain & Palin have done and would do, you would all have fallen in love w/Sarah Palin like 80% of Alaska. Instead she was forced to be the bulldog & go on the attack.

The good news is maybe in 2012 we will have Bobby Jindal & Sarah Palin for president.

We respect the political views of everyone ...just wanted to share our notes from talking tonight. If we were fiscally or socially liberal we would vote for Barrack Obama over Hillary, Biden, or Edwards.
tgir wrote:
Sales taxes are regressive: everybody pays the same sales tax on taxable items, regardless of their income.
Not true. The wealthy buy a lot more stuff and the basics of life (in Massachusetts clothing, food (up to $275 per item), shelter, and newspapers(!)) are tax free.

tgir wrote:
Generally speaking, lower income people pay a much higher percentage of their income for basic necessities such as shelter, food, transportation. They pay much higher interest rates for loans, if they can get a loan.
Of course! The point?

tgir wrote:
Oh, btw, that old socialist, Richard M. Nixon proposed a negative income tax in conjunction with eliminating some welfare programs (since they would be redundant if there was a negative income tax).
Yeah, it's called the Earned Income Credit and it pays out a huge sum of money redistributing the wealth from taxpayers to non-taxpayers. I know of someone who decided to work at a much lower rate than she was capable of earning so that she could spend summers off with her kids, and she got to take the EIC. Now as it happens, the amount she got from the EIC and the amount I got (after taxes) for a year's worth of incredibly hard work was almost identical to the dollar. Funny is that the taxes I paid on that bonus were also almost identical to the amount of her "bonus" too. So my hard work above and beyond the call that got me that bonus paid for her summer off. Is that fair??? Can you imagine how many times and how hard I have gritted my teeth as my sister told me about her EIC?

And that old socialist Richard Nixon signed the Clean Air and Clean Water bills and OSHA and a lot of other stuff that would have made him the hero of the progressive left. It goes back to my point about if you want to get a program in place, vote for the guy of the OTHER party.

The problem with the progressive taxation figures you cite is that they are badly skewed: Even if the numbers and percentages they cite are correct, the tax tables don't take into account the standard deductions and credits and more that enable people of means to pay no taxes at all. Not even 1%!!! How is that fair? EVERYONE SHOULD PAY SOMETHING. It would give everyone a stake when taxpayers are called upon to make a sacrifice.

Before you get to Dollar Zero, a family of four gets $24,300 in standard deduction and exemptions. Then a 15% additional tax credit for the kids, then the EIC. Just looking at the EIC and the standard deductions/exemptions, I can see that a family of four can earn at least $34,000 and not pay a dime in income taxes. A family earning $24,300 will receive a $3,266 refund on no taxes paid. A family earning $11,750 to $17,400 will get at least a $4,716 refund without having paid a dime. And don't forget those stimulus payments! That family of four got an additional $1,800 of my money this year too, meaning that they could have earned a little more than $50,000 without paying a dime in income taxes. Fair?

Look, I realize that there is some serious poverty in our country, but the tax code isn't the place this should be addressed. It's like trying to fix the problem of a person who isn't able to tie their shoe by giving them a gift certificate to a shoe store worth half the price of one shoe. It just isn't the way to go about giving a helping hand.

Hey, after looking at the EIC, I think we made a huge mistake on our 1040 a couple of years ago. I think Joan and I could have taken the EIC the year we were traveling; she earned a little bit of money doing a few trade shows that year; we should have received about $488 dollars from the government. I had no idea you could get it even if you had no kids. Drat!
Mrs J, I think you hit the nail on the head!! The problem with the McCain/Palin campaign has not been that they are not good people with perfectly sound ideas (if you are a conservative :wink: ) but that they have angered many in the "middle" with their negative politics.

Which is too bad ( for them) because there are far more "middle of the roaders" than flaming liberals (like me :lol: ) or conservatives.

As far as taxes go, I guess I am a socialist because I see absolutely nothing wrong with expecting the Donald Trumps of the world to bear more of a tax burden than the family that is barely scrapping by.

Ron, your figures make my head spin and I'm not sure I follow them (which is why I am not an accountant) but I do know that for many years I was a single parent in a famiy of 3 with an income of less than $40,000 paying a tax rate of greater than 10%. Hardly "low" income but not exactly middle class either. I did not own a home, could not invest in a 401K, didn't have a "pre tax" dollar account and did not have the expendable income to put into plans that would lower my taxes. So my "tax rate" was straight out of the table.

As I have said before, people with a higher income have the luxery of accumulating more tax deductions so a higher tax rate is not necessarily an unfair thing, it is more of a leveler.
Mrs J thank you for the thoughtful and long post.

I just want to point out that Bush did claim to have more intelligence than congress saw. and palin dod not exactly sell the state jet at anything other than a huge loss to the people of Alaska (from a previous post), it was more symbolic than good policy.

I really don't think Barack is the socialist people claimhe is. if you listen to him he talks impassionedly about personal responsibility and for the need of all people to take responsibility for themselves. Having lived through the more recent victim society where everyone needs a handout becasue nothing is their fault I do think this is a significant change.

and McCain will not veto pork bills - they all say it, they never do it. he owes too many peopple and there will alwasy bea justification for why this bill or that bill is not really pork. I have seen it at the State level - it won't be any different here.

And Ron - we all know Massachusettes is one of the most liberal states so of course your sales tax is less regressive than others. it doesn't mean that in theory sales tax isn't regressive. I know some people game the system like your friend (although spending the summers with her kids may be seen as a valuable activity), but now that I make much closer to the magic rich cut off I am more than willing to pay a bigger share of income taxes, than I was as a young parent living on $10,000 a year in the late 70's.
Plane – could be symbolic, but it was one of many campaign promise she lived up to.

People like here b/c she promised she would go after corruption, be prudent spending the tax payers money, and bring a natural gas pipeline to Alaska. She did it all in her first 2 years. That is why her approval rating is over 80% in a state where people watch politics VERY closely. We've never seen a place where every other commercial is something regarding the state (vote for this, did you know this politician did this, etc).

Second thing is John McCain doesn’t owe anyone anything other than his campaign promises. He followed the McCain Feingold legislation & only took $80 million at $2,500 a pop. Barrack Obama took $750 million. $200,000 (2nd highest in congress, and he was only there a couple of years) of that was from Fannie May or Freddie Mac. All the heads of the democrat financial committee chairs took HUGE contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Makes you wonder why no legislation was put in place to prevent the mortgage meltdown. Wait until congress holds hearings on the Fannie Mae Freddie Mac collapse, conveniently scheduled after the elections.
you can't be in politics for as long as McCain and not owe people - its how the game works, even if its only things collegues and staffers want.
I thought this site was interesting.

http://www.newsmeat.com

You can type in any person's name and see how much money they have contributed and to which campaign.


Mary
SheepALot wrote:
I thought this site was interesting.

http://www.newsmeat.com

You can type in any person's name and see how much money they have contributed and to which campaign.


Mary


hmmm its out of date or at least not complete - i don't find myself when i search
Tasker's Mom wrote:
Mrs J, I think you hit the nail on the head!! The problem with the McCain/Palin campaign has not been that they are not good people with perfectly sound ideas (if you are a conservative :wink: ) but that they have angered many in the "middle" with their negative politics.

Which is too bad ( for them) because there are far more "middle of the roaders" than flaming liberals (like me :lol: ) or conservatives.
The problem is Palin comes across like an idiot.

Tasker's Mom wrote:
As far as taxes go, I guess I am a socialist because I see absolutely nothing wrong with expecting the Donald Trumps of the world to bear more of a tax burden than the family that is barely scrapping by.
Absolutely! I agree that he should pay more, but not 50, 70 or 90% of his income.

Remember, these folks who get tax deductions get them because they are steering capital to activities according to the wishes of our society (or at least congress). So when they are taxed at a lower rate for investing long term than flipping in the stock market, they are doing what congress wants. When they give money to charity (sometimes in HUGE amounts) they are doing what congress wants them to do; to be charitable.

Tasker's Mom wrote:
Ron, your figures make my head spin and I'm not sure I follow them (which is why I am not an accountant) but I do know that for many years I was a single parent in a famiy of 3 with an income of less than $40,000 paying a tax rate of greater than 10%. Hardly "low" income but not exactly middle class either. I did not own a home, could not invest in a 401K, didn't have a "pre tax" dollar account and did not have the expendable income to put into plans that would lower my taxes. So my "tax rate" was straight out of the table.
Well $40,000 isn't "nothing", and I'm sure you got the head of household standard deduction and exemptions for the kids so that income wasn't taxed. Under Reagan your first tax level in the table was 10 or 11% of the remaining amount. My sister's income was substantially below that; perhaps 1/2 plus child support of some amount.

Tasker's Mom wrote:
As I have said before, people with a higher income have the luxery of accumulating more tax deductions so a higher tax rate is not necessarily an unfair thing, it is more of a leveler.

I don't want to look at it as a "leveler", I want to look at it as fairness... and I want the tax system to be or become more transparent. Easier to understand.


The EIC which was originally supposed to be an "Enter your income here. Look up your income in the EIC table, enter the EIC credit from the table here" law. Now it takes pages of worksheets to figure out if you're eligible. Why? Because congress is trying to use the tax code to direct funds to people who need help, and that is a nearly impossible task.

Another example, everyone pays 1.45% of their income (from the first dollar to the last dollar) towards their Medicare coverage. In the year I recall calculating this, Oprah and Michael Jordan each earned about $80 million dollars, meaning they each paid about 1 million dollars towards their retirement healthcare (which they will probably never use) which really goes into the general fund. Fair? Why not make that "hidden" tax a 1% increase in the general income tax if it bears no direct relationship to your own level of benefit?

About the level of vetoing, the President will basically have the following option: sign the whole multi-trillion dollar package into law as is, or veto it and shut the entire government down. There is no line item veto for the President to exercise. I think we'd have a very different country right now if he or she did.

Anywho, what I want is a leader to inspire us and move us in a common direction. I hope we will elect a candidate who can inspire us to move us in a consensus direction; not too far left, not too far right. I don't want us to bog down for another 4 years and not move towards resolution of any issues. The last 35 years has been pretty barren of progress.
Well, at least he's honest about it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZxnT5tHVIo

Ready for your electricity rates to skyrocket? Will that be progressive and soak the rich more?
Ron wrote:
tgir wrote:
Sales taxes are regressive: everybody pays the same sales tax on taxable items, regardless of their income.
Not true. The wealthy buy a lot more stuff and the basics of life (in Massachusetts clothing, food (up to $275 per item), shelter, and newspapers(!)) are tax free.!


A regressive tax is one in which lower income individuals pay a proportionally higher portion of their income for that tax. All flat taxes are 'regressive' by definition.

Hey, move to Minnesota. No tax on food or clothing.

Ron wrote:
Yeah, it's called the Earned Income Credit and it pays out a huge sum of money redistributing the wealth from taxpayers to non-taxpayers.


No, the EIC is not the same thing as Nixon proposed (in conslutation with Milton Freidman). The EIC actually provides much less relief than than Nixon's proposal. I brought this up only because people seem bound and determined to throw about the term 'socialist' without really understanding what the term means and without realizing that good old Republicans have historically proposed much larger 'redistributions of wealth,' just as historically, Republicans have enacted much, much higher tax rates on wealthy than is currently in effect or is being proposed by ANYBODY.

If it makes you feel better, lower income people redistribute THEIR wealth by purchasing goods and services. The people who make the profit are higher income people. People who own businesses and manufacturing companies employ people who earn money to purchase their goods and services, etc. It's a big circle. That's how the economy works.


I have news for you: Your friend who 'took the summer off' to care for her kids was not slacking, she was just working only one (24/7) job instead of two.

I am curious: it seems as though you believe that everybody is morally obligated to perform work that allows them to earn to their highest monetary earning capacity. Yet, there are many professions (education being one; some parts of the medical profession would also qualify, as would social work, and most public sector careers) which pay far less than the private sector could/would for persons with similar or identical qualifications and talents. Officers in the military and even regular enlisted personnel could be included. People choose these types of service careers choose lower paying careers for a variety of reasons: they believe in the mission, they feel a calling for this type of work, the work allows them to spend quality time with their families, etc.

When my husband finished grad school, he had multiple job offers, including a pretty lucrative one in the private sector. He chose academia for a variety of reasons, despite the fact that academia would provide far less income for MANY of reasons, including his desire to actually see and spend time with his children--the other job would have involved more 60+ hr weeks (yes, they have those in academia, too).

I postponed my career, instead working a series of volunteer or low paying jobs with flexible hours to allow me to spend time raising my children. I suppose I was also a leech on society.

Never fear: fewer and fewer young people today are choosing to pursue advanced degrees which would allow them to teach at our universities, instead pursuing the quicker and larger salaries. I hate to think what universities might look like in 20 years. We are on a path to lose our competitive edge, not just in manufacturing, but also in research and development.

Quote:
So my hard work above and beyond the call that got me that bonus paid for her summer off. Is that fair??? Can you imagine how many times and how hard I have gritted my teeth as my sister told me about her EIC


Do I get to complain that the money I spent on getting my kids' teeth whitened paid for their othodontist's perpetual tan (and potential treatment for potential skin cancer)? We don't get to make choices for other people. We get to make our own choices.

I am assuming that your career has provided you with the types of rewards that were important to you. If not, if you are that unhappy with the choice you made, maybe you need to re-think your choices.
tgir wrote:
Quote:
So my hard work above and beyond the call that got me that bonus paid for her summer off. Is that fair??? Can you imagine how many times and how hard I have gritted my teeth as my sister told me about her EIC


Do I get to complain that the money I spent on getting my kids' teeth whitened paid for their othodontist's perpetual tan (and potential treatment for potential skin cancer)? We don't get to make choices for other people. We get to make our own choices.

EXCUUUUUUSE ME???

They are YOUR kids, YOUR CHOICE to have them, YOUR CHOICE to have their teeth whitened. The money was taken from me at the point of a gun and given to my college degreed sister who worked for $8 an hour as a school library assistant so she could take the summer off with her kids, all of which was HER CHOICE. (BTW, as soon as her kids graduated she took a professional job to earn her living...)

If a person cannot afford to have and raise kids, then they shouldn't have them.
Even putting that aside, it would be one thing if she COULDN'T earn enough money to support her chosen lifestyle, but she CHOSE to take public money, MY MONEY, to support her summer vacation. She could have earned enough to support her family. She was essentially a "deadbeat mom," took advantage of the system and I got stuck with the tab. If the EIC wasn't there, she would have had to work, and would have worked a job sufficient to support her CHOICES. The existence of the program itself caused her "dependency" on the program.

SHE CHOSE to work for low pay. SHE CHOSE to take the vacations. SHE CHOSE to take my money. Where's MY CHOICE in any of this?
tgir wrote:
Hey, move to Minnesota. No tax on food or clothing.
Yes, that's what makes it not regressive (and that's the same I wrote about massachusetts' sales tax). The $6,500 in sales tax I paid on my motorhome was not regressive to anyone who can't afford a motorhome.

tgir wrote:
If it makes you feel better, lower income people redistribute THEIR wealth by purchasing goods and services.
That's just silly. They get goods and services for their money. A redistribution of the wealth is the taking of monies for no goods and services in return.

tgir wrote:
I am curious: it seems as though you believe that everybody is morally obligated to perform work that allows them to earn to their highest monetary earning capacity.
I used to think that people ought to be as productive as possible for the betterment of society, now I just think people should earn enough to support their choices and at least not be a burden on society. It's up to your morals if you think you've given enough to society. If you've been blessed with brains and abilities, it's up to you to decide not to use them to make the world a better place.

tgir wrote:
I postponed my career, instead working a series of volunteer or low paying jobs with flexible hours to allow me to spend time raising my children. I suppose I was also a leech on society.
Only if you took the EIC or benefits from another welfare program while fully capable of earning more.
;)

tgir wrote:
I am assuming that your career has provided you with the types of rewards that were important to you. If not, if you are that unhappy with the choice you made, maybe you need to re-think your choices.
Yes, I made my choices and earned my rewards, and then they were taken away from me and given to my sister. Hey maybe I can take away half of her choices and get 1/2 of her vacation. Or 1/2 of her kids.
I am sorry Ron. Unless every single economist with a PhD I know (and I know a lot of them) is wrong, you don't really understand the definition of regressive tax.

Quote:
EXCUUUUUUSE ME???

They are YOUR kids, YOUR CHOICE to have them, YOUR CHOICE to have their teeth whitened.[



Not what an orthodontist does.

And yes, my point was that I do not have a choice over what my orthodontist does with his fees. I don't feel I had a right to limit or criticize what he did with the money he collected from me for what I feel are frivalous things. That's exactly what I meant. They are my kids, my responsibility. I don't get to complain how ANYONE else spends his/her money. If I don't like the structure of society with regards to how resources are allocated, I get to work within the political structure to try to make the system better.

I thought my kids' orthodontist's vacations and tans and overly whitened teeth were frivalous--and I got to pay for them! While he perpetually complained that insurance companies did not do enough to compensate him and pay for his lavish life style. BTW, insurance imbursements were only partial payment. I paid a great deal for the remainder of the fees--and he got to take the vacations my kids never had.

You think your sister made choices that were frivalous and you resent that you got to help pay for them. But Ron, that's how society--any society works. We all pay for each other. It is merely a myth that we are all or any of us completely self sufficient.


Quote:
Even putting that aside, it would be one thing if she COULDN'T earn enough money to support her chosen lifestyle, but she CHOSE to take public money, MY MONEY, to support her summer vacation. She could have earned enough to support her family. She was essentially a "deadbeat mom," took advantage of the system and I got stuck with the tab. If the EIC wasn't there, she would have had to work, and would have worked a job sufficient to support her CHOICES. The existence of the program itself caused her "dependency" on the program.


Where is their dad in all of this???

I am sorry but since you have no children, you honestly have no real idea what it costs to raise a family in terms of time and money. Or childcare.
Given how much you resent your sister and her family, I feel sorry for your nieces and nephews . They will be helping to foot the bill for your retirement through their social security taxes (sorry, Ron, but that's the way the system is set up). I'm guessing you aren't counting on them to visit you in the retirement home.

You certainly are free to make new choices for yourself, hopefully ones which will give you more pleasure and less resentment. Given the attitudes you set forth in this thread about raising children, I hope that you will forgo asking for half of your sisters'.

Speaking of subsidies, if you pay a mortgage, we all help subsidize you. If you flew in an airplane we all helped subsidize you. If you used petroleum products, or public transportation, we all helped to subsidize you. For starters.
tgir wrote:
I am sorry Ron. Unless every single economist with a PhD I know (and I know a lot of them) is wrong, you don't really understand the definition of regressive tax.


Speaking of subsidies, if you pay a mortgage, we all help subsidize you. If you flew in an airplane we all helped subsidize you. If you used petroleum products, or public transportation, we all helped to subsidize you. For starters.


i have tried to stay out of this but --- well we all know I can't it must be a genetic disorder.

Sorry - tgir perhaps your PHDs in economics can explain the difference between a tax and a market price to you. you can't mix and match the two. I would assume they would understand that.

your ortho work is market price based and has absolutely nothing to do with regressive or progressive taxation.

and I don't see where we are subsidizing Ron's mortgage - but I do see where we are subsidizing your kids education. again can't mix and match public and private costs. I may not agree with all ron says - some of it sounds a little grumpy to me - but lets not confuse the issue.
Hey, you're the one that said "whitening teeth" at the orthodontist.... I thought it odd, but I was just quoting you. Perhaps you meant straightening.

Who is this "we" you are referring to? The taxpayers? Or do you mean the folks who don't pay any income taxes (other than into their own retirement plan) but like to call themselves taxpayers? Well, I suppose the sales tax qualifies them, but you want to take away that pleasure from them too I suppose!

Un uhh.... I have paid my own way and then some through the tax code. Nobody has subsidized my life. I have big cars and big trucks and pay a huge amount in the gas taxes that go to fund welfare programs instead of fixing the roads (or even developing alternative energies, at least that would be somewhat connected). Joan and I have paid huge taxes, income and sales and property taxes.

And I know very well how much it costs to raise kids: more than 50% of my property taxes go to "the kids", then a large percentage of my state income tax goes to pay for all things "kids" and an ever increasing amount of my federal income tax is going for "kids" stuff.

A sales tax that excludes life's basics is not regressive, it is not progressive, it is FAIR. If you can afford that playstation, that movie, you can afford a few percent to help run the government.

What does their DAD have to do with this discussion? That's a red herring. But since you ask and just for the record, he lives in the same town (actually a neighboring one) and made every child support payment and paid in full for one of their college educations and helped with the other's. Did they NEED my money? I mean, really.

And I don't resent my sister; I'm human. I understand human nature. People are (almost) always happy when people they love get "a bonus" from the government largess, and I'm glad she got my money. I resent the system and the program that made it possible.

...and no, I don't expect her kids to visit me in the nursing home. If you give them another $10,000 of my money, would they visit more?
tgir wrote:
Given how much you resent your sister and her family, I feel sorry for your nieces and nephews .
[...]
I'm guessing you aren't counting on them to visit you in the retirement home.

You certainly are free to make new choices for yourself, hopefully ones which will give you more pleasure and less resentment. Given the attitudes you set forth in this thread about raising children, I hope that you will forgo asking for half of your sisters'.
...and what's with the personal attacks? Have I called your motives or your altruism into question or insulted your choices in life or made snarky comments intended to hurt?
Well, one thing is for sure...........this time tomorrow (give or take a few hours) the decision will be made and we will have a new President. THEN we'll have to wait a bit before the "I told you so's" start.

I suspect that no matter who is elected our taxes will ultimately go up. Regardless of who is in office for the next three years we need to pay for the last five years of war and the mortgagee crisis. Democrat or Republican the cost of energy is going to continue to rise. I don't mind paying more in taxes IF, and it's a big IF our economy get's back on strong footing and our investments once again become valued.

There will ALWAYS be abuse of the system and people will benefit from laws and bills that were never intended to benefit. SO I guess we need to take the good with the bad. I am glad we live in a country that has social welfare programs and at least makes an attempt to care for those less fortunate. Am I angry that it is abused and full of fraud, you BETCHA but the alternative is letting everyone go hungry (told you before I was a Socialist).

Am I sick of the far right and the Christian Coalition cramming their fundamentalist rhetoric down my throat, ABSOLUTELY. But I am thankful we live in a country that ALLOWS it.

SO VOTE TOMORROW and may the best person win.
Cripes, I did say whitened. Sleep deprivation (family situation re: inlaws) I meant bites correction: beyond cosmetic work was required.



Quote:
Who is this "we" you are referring to? The taxpayers? Or do you mean the folks who don't pay any income taxes (other than into their own retirement plan) but like to call themselves taxpayers? Well, I suppose the sales tax qualifies them, but you want to take away that pleasure from them too I suppose!


I meant everyone--all of society. Not one of us alive invented the wheel, learned to use fire, invented the printing press, etc. We all benefit from those who came before us and we all benefit from each other--my dollars spent in MN go out and wind themselves throughout the US economy and the world economy and have an effect on the economy in MA. And out into the world. As do your dollars. No matter whether those dollars are spent at the local diner or paid in income, payroll, property, or sales tax. That's how the economy works. And the same thing with skills--who knows whether one of your nieces or nephews or one of my kids will make discoveries that will have far-reaching positive effects on the world? We don't, but as a society, we do our best to prepare our children, to give them the tools and skills and education to make their own way--and their own decisions. But we are foolish and naive if we don't acknowledge that our decisions have an impact beyond our own personal little worlds.

I hate to break it to you but federal tax dollars help subsidize the auto industry (and so, your big cars--my kids say thanks for your contribution to greenhouse gasses, btw.). Oh, and our tax structure helps keep food prices low. I expect you eat, now and then, right? You weren't home schooled, right? So tax dollars helped prepare you for your future. Even private schools benefit from tax dollars (it's pretty transparent in MN, where public tax dollars pay for transportation, school books, and any supplemental learning program a parochial school or home schooler cannot or does not provide for students).

I'm not complaining --just explaining that whether we like to think of it that way or not, we all are helped by the system.

Regressive/progressive are simply economic definitions. These terms are not reflective of 'fairness' or perceived fairness.

Our federal income tax structure was always set up to be 'progressive' that is, those with higher incomes paid a proportionally higher percentage of their income in federal income taxes. In the past, it has been far more progressive than it is at present. Neither McCain nor Obama (nor myself) has proposed making federal income taxes such that highter income individuals pay 70 or 91 percent of their income in federal income taxes (as was the case up until the 60's). The idea is that those with higher incomes benefit the most from society and should then pay more (and can afford to pay more).
Ron wrote:
tgir wrote:
Given how much you resent your sister and her family, I feel sorry for your nieces and nephews .
[...]
I'm guessing you aren't counting on them to visit you in the retirement home.

You certainly are free to make new choices for yourself, hopefully ones which will give you more pleasure and less resentment. Given the attitudes you set forth in this thread about raising children, I hope that you will forgo asking for half of your sisters'.
...and what's with the personal attacks? Have I called your motives or your altruism into question or insulted your choices in life or made snarky comments intended to hurt?


Uh, yeah, I do rather take it personally that you feel you can decide whether or not I was fully contributing to society. Yes, that was insulting. Whether you intended it or not.
kerry wrote:
tgir wrote:
I am sorry Ron. Unless every single economist with a PhD I know (and I know a lot of them) is wrong, you don't really understand the definition of regressive tax.


Speaking of subsidies, if you pay a mortgage, we all help subsidize you. If you flew in an airplane we all helped subsidize you. If you used petroleum products, or public transportation, we all helped to subsidize you. For starters.


i have tried to stay out of this but --- well we all know I can't it must be a genetic disorder.

Sorry - tgir perhaps your PHDs in economics can explain the difference between a tax and a market price to you. you can't mix and match the two. I would assume they would understand that.

your ortho work is market price based and has absolutely nothing to do with regressive or progressive taxation.

and I don't see where we are subsidizing Ron's mortgage - but I do see where we are subsidizing your kids education. again can't mix and match public and private costs. I may not agree with all ron says - some of it sounds a little grumpy to me - but lets not confuse the issue.


Kerry, I quite understand the difference between a market price and a tax. I am sorry if I confused the issue by throwing in a private market analogy.

I know perfectly well that ortho work is market based --that wasn't the point. The point is that money is money, whether it goes for taxes or for fees for services. I may think that the recipients of federal or state tax dollars do not deserve them or use them foolishly, but except through the system (lobbying efforts, legislative efforts, voting, running for office), I don't get to decide. Just as I don't get to decide whether my orthodontist spends his money wisely. I get to decide whether to use the service but not how the provider uses his fees.

Re: subsidizing mortages: If itemize deductions when you file federal (and state) income taxes, you normally get to deduct interest paid for your mortgage. That is in effect, a way of subsiziding mortgages and home ownership. This is considered a good thing by our society--we want to encourage home ownership.

Federal subsidies of industries subsidize not just the industry but also the workers and help keep prices lower for consumers. This is true of any subsidy.

Yes, federal, state, and local moneys subsidize education (at all levels) for my kids, your kids, us when we were kids. Again, this is something that as a society, we have decided we value (although we sure do talk different) and that we, as a society, help pay. And guess what? We all benefit, whether or not we have kids.
well - actually the mortgage tax decuction is intended to spur the construction industry - not to subsidize individual home owners. it wasn't home owners who lobbied successfully to retain that tax credit when the interest on credit cards was eliminated a few decades ago. Sort of like foodstamps actually being created to subsidize agriculture, there are side benefits but the lobbyists steer the ship.

and actually I didn't go to public school and neither did my kids - but I still pay thousands of dollars in school tax annually as did my parents.

and you did try to explain regressive taxation with your ortho story - I am not sure you still aren't.
Tasker's Mom wrote:
There will ALWAYS be abuse of the system and people will benefit from laws and bills that were never intended to benefit. SO I guess we need to take the good with the bad. I am glad we live in a country that has social welfare programs and at least makes an attempt to care for those less fortunate. Am I angry that it is abused and full of fraud, you BETCHA but the alternative is letting everyone go hungry (told you before I was a Socialist).
I don't want people to starve or to be homeless. There are many cases where I think people in need should get more -- much more -- but the system just can't do that because of the fraud. So instead of being able to SOLVE the problems, the programs merely perpetuate them.

The overriding problem is the farther away from the problem the government is in terms of distance as well as layers of administration, the less able it is to deal with it efficiently.

If local towns, or local streets administered the welfare in our country..... imagine. Do you think my sister's neighbor would have willingly increased their own property taxes to fund her vacation? Or do you think they would have looked at her like she had two heads and told her to get a better paying job?

I realize and understand that capricious local welfare would not meet the generalized goals of a standardized national welfare, so there would have to be some guidelines. The problem is the guidelines have become rules and the rules have increased and increased to the point that they just don't work properly, and cannot be flexible enough to weed out people who are gaming the system.

Can you imagine how much money would be spent if the federal government were in charge of OES Rescue? First would be the regulations preventing anything from being done to rescue dogs until a few years of studying had been completed. During this time, hundreds of dogs would be PTS.

Then the government would hold some hearings on the issue, and someone with a constituency in Missouri would add a rider onto an 18,000 page spending bill that would somehow positively affect the puppy farms. Then a PeTA constituency would advocate for PTS all dogs in the shelters because we don't have a right to subjugate them. Then another right wing group would fight against spaying and neutering because of the bible, and the HSUS would agree that it is a cruel and unnecessary operation. Then they would decide that any dog with a docked tail wouldn't be rescued. Then the government would take charge of the issue by taxing everyone who breeds a dog a large fee to fund the Governmental Rescue Program, the rules of which would prevent anyone other than a government agent from rescuing a dog. Then it would take 20 years for the government to set up shelters all across the country, all built in standardized ways, for the betterment of the dogs, of course. Then when a dog came in, it would be held for 180 days to ensure that the owner didn't come looking, and then the Evaluation and Competency Period would begin (can't administer a test to a dog you don't yet own, of course) and then the Competitive Adoption Process would begin. People would fill out a governmental pet adoption application form, have their backgrounds checked for any Sex Offender or Marijuana possession charges, check their driving records and DMV records for any outstanding parking tickets or excise bills that might be unpaid, or student loans. Then they would be allowed to foster the pet but with a requirement for a yearly check up at a government run veterinary clinic. I won't go into details about that.

This is the system that's administering much of our lives. Sounds absurd when you know how the current adoption "system" "works", right? So instead of helping the little adoption agencies, this is how it would be done.

This is how welfare and every other large government program is run. Some things must be done this way, like nuclear power plants. We've lost the ability to look at a person and ask: "What does this person need (if anything) to get them out of this situation and to become productive?"
tgir wrote:
Ron wrote:
tgir wrote:
Given how much you resent your sister and her family, I feel sorry for your nieces and nephews .
[...]
I'm guessing you aren't counting on them to visit you in the retirement home.

You certainly are free to make new choices for yourself, hopefully ones which will give you more pleasure and less resentment. Given the attitudes you set forth in this thread about raising children, I hope that you will forgo asking for half of your sisters'.
...and what's with the personal attacks? Have I called your motives or your altruism into question or insulted your choices in life or made snarky comments intended to hurt?


Uh, yeah, I do rather take it personally that you feel you can decide whether or not I was fully contributing to society. Yes, that was insulting. Whether you intended it or not.
So you'd respond to a feeling that you were being individually singled out when I was clearly talking in complete generalities other than the specifics of my sister's situation (and don't know a single thing about your own personal situation) by purposely making hurtful remarks towards me.

Yup. That's just about how our politics are in this country.
Quote:
tgir wrote:
I postponed my career, instead working a series of volunteer or low paying jobs with flexible hours to allow me to spend time raising my children. I suppose I was also a leech on society.
Only if you took the EIC or benefits from another welfare program while fully capable of earning more.
Wink


Uh, yeah. I guess I did think it was personal.


Although we never filed for EIC or other benefits even when we qualified. No nobility on our part: we didn't feel we needed them and didn't apply. The IRS did choose one year to send us an EIC payment.

I realize this post will probably end my career here at oes.org, but as I read this thread, I could not help thinking who is this guy who thinks he has the right to judge other people whose lives he does not lead? I realize you have no children and I have no idea why that is: choice or bad luck or fate. I cannot presume to know how you feel about having no children. I know how I would feel if I had not had children, but that's me, and not you.

But I do know many families who have been dealt some pretty harsh blows--three friends who were widowed while raising a young family. A couple of women with children who were abandoned for newer, younger models. Friends who have had to deal with chronic, even disabling conditions of their spouse, their children, themselves. Or children with special needs--some obvious, some not so obvious. My family who had it's own cruel bit of fate which dramatically changed the course of my career. And the surprises that happened along the way afterwards.

Everyone I know works hard to do the best they can with what they have. A lot of people have put off pursuing career paths or educational paths because of family concerns: raising children, caring for a sick spouse or parent or child. One spouse delaying/postponing/abandoning a career or education in order for the other to pursue their career/ambition. A few of us have gotten some pretty nifty combos.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with people receiving help when they need it. Most people I know would prefer to receive a better wage for the work they do (or for a chance at decent employment) rather than a tax rebate or EIC. Sure, in my town there are one or two nightmare families who feed off the system from generation to generation, but they cost the system peanuts compared with the money we use to subsidize many industries (and so save jobs). I am not even complaining about that---but I sure would appreciate some intellectual honesty in the political discourse.
tgir wrote:
I am not even complaining about that---but I sure would appreciate some intellectual honesty in the political discourse.


gee my point exactly.....
that's enough insults for me from this forum.
tgir wrote:
Honestly, I don't have a problem with people receiving help when they need it. Most people I know would prefer to receive a better wage for the work they do (or for a chance at decent employment) rather than a tax rebate or EIC. Sure, in my town there are one or two nightmare families who feed off the system from generation to generation, but they cost the system peanuts compared with the money we use to subsidize many industries (and so save jobs).


Lol. You need to experience Detroit. It'll change your outlook. :twisted:
Joahaeyo wrote:
If we were fiscally or socially liberal we would vote for Barrack Obama over Hillary, Biden, or Edwards.[/b]


Would you vote for McCain/Palin if they were running on a ticket other than Republican?
tgir wrote:
I realize this post will probably end my career here at oes.org, but as I read this thread
I'm sorry you feel this way. From my perspective you continue to be as welcome here as anyone else. I'd rather debate about it with you around our kitchen table than sit around a campfire and nodding my head in agreement with everything said by people who agree with me. ;)
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