Breeding Topic on Forum
While I think that there may be members on this forum who would take the necessary precautions to ensure that they were breeding healthy dogs as a novice breeder, I really think that a breeding category on this forum would really be opening a can of worms. I know a lot of you feel strongly about unethical breeding so please consider voting in the "poll" section of this forum as it stands right now only 19 people have voted and almost 90% are in favor of a breeding section. I think it is really nice of Ron to consider everyone's opinion, but wouldn't offering a breeding section, be one step away from advertising litters for sale? I think the topic subject "Getting a Puppy" is still the best way to steer potential OES puppy buyers into finding a puppy by the best means possible plus it seem as though the members of this forum are also really quick with adding a rescue dog as an option as well. Sorry to be so opinionated but I really valued everyone's advice here on the forum and I feel that I got a really nice pup because of it too. |
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| I would like to see a forum dedicated- not necessarily just to breeding, but to the more "professional" (used in a loose way) aspects of OES ownership. It'd be nice to have a place to discuss: confirnmation, agility, obediance, stock dog showing, etc. There are those of us who do participate in these events (and those people like me who are interested in getting started in it) who would appreciate a place to share advice on these subjects. I for one, would love to hear more advice from people like Carl- who have been in the breed for along time, and know their stuff. (All kudos to you Carl, for your great grooming advice!) JMHO!
Karen  |
| Verveup,
I'm feeling the same way - but I voted for a seperate category - so there's a place for these discussions and they don't get snuck in under other topics. I think it's important to have information about breeding - but not advertising litters, studs, or anything like that. There wasn't an option for that - so I voted to have it seperated. Hopefully, people have taken advice given so far and would do their homework researching a reputable breeder. Just because they are members of the forum and you've talked over the internet - please don't assume they are responsible/reputable breeders! I know this tends to be against human nature - we want what we want when we want it! 
Karen - I also agree - I think the information that Carl provides is invaluable! Kristen |
| I feel the same as Verveup, I wouldn't like to see puppies advertised here, but I think it would be a great place to discuss the reputation of a breeder you found, your experiences and comments and questions you may have if you breed dogs. In a forum like that you can ask if so and so breeder is OK, as some posts I've seen on other threads, that will also keep the sections within context. |
I agree with Verve Up.... I think I am the only one who voted against it. At least I was, unless Verve added one 
I don't want to see this forum go the way I've seen many others. I also am afraid that people who are new to the breed, and fallen under the spell of our fur babies may decide to breed without putting much thought or effort into it. I personally have been planning to raise OES for over a decade, but it has taken me this long to get "the right dogs" appropriate to be shown and bred, and to learn enough to even attempt this.... there is a neverending amount of learning to be done! Also, I am being mentored by some of the best, most respected and experienced breeders in the country. That doesn't make me any better than anyone else, but I would not want to see people get into breeding as back yard breeders because they only hear about the happy endings. They have no idea how much work, effort, time and money goes into becoming a reputable breeder. And the reason behind their decision should never be just because puppies are cute. This is not an endevour to enter lightly, it is a LIFETIME committment, to the dogs you live with, and to every OES because you need to be responsible for what you are helping to create, for all dogs, all over the world, forever. JMO |
| I have to agree with you, Stacey- deciding to breed should be taken up only by those who are firmly dedicated to the betterment of the breed that they are interested in. There is so much to take into consideration- genetic health of your dogs, temperment, your goals for your line, and that's only some of the forethought in selection- never mind all the physical blood sweat and tears that goes into breeding and raising pups! I wish that the general public took a more serious view of responsible breeding of animals- perhaps then we would not have such severe pet overpopulation issues
Karen |
| I voted against it as well. I feel VERY strongly about this as I have seen so many people come into the rescue I used to work at with puppies they just couldn't sell (from backyard breeding). Makes me upset to hear about people who decide to do this, proceed, and THEN decide to look up "a little" info. on it.
I think you learn so much from sites like this that inform those "inquiring" what is really involved and who should really do/not do it. |
| It sure seems like alot of people would like to see a breeding forum on here... 84% are voting for it right now. I must admit I voted for it!!
I think it would be ok to list who is looking, it doesn't mean you have to start selling puppies here. You just have to set some rules. |
Joahaeyo wrote: Makes me upset to hear about people who decide to do this, proceed, and THEN decide to look up "a little" info. on it.
I think you learn so much from sites like this that inform those "inquiring" what is really involved and who should really do/not do it. Unfortunately, the bottom line for these people is money. They treat this like a "business opportunity". When they bother to get the "little info" about breeding/OES - they don't do anything about it! Even after these "breeders" have problems (puppies born with genetic ailments or significant temperment problems) they continue to breed the same sire/dam. They breed at each heat cycle - because the more puppies bred - the more money lining their pockets. They put their own dogs lives at risk - all to make a buck! The internet is making it easier for them now - it's easier to order a puppy than it is order a Pizza! 
I would hope a forum such as this could persuade people out of breeding irresponsibly - but my cynical mind tells me that it's not going to happen. It's our responsibility to STOP buying puppies from these breeders (and petstores, brokers, etc.). Maybe we could at least persuade someone to buy responsibly! It's not easy - I can't even get people in my own family to BUY responsibly - never mind complete strangers! JMHO. Kristen |
| Not everyone that wants to breed their dog is like that. I would love to breed my dog because I want one of her puppies. I love her very much and would love to have just a little part of her. Before I decided to breed I would have all the medical history from the sire, and would not want to breed to someone that wouldn't ask for the same from me. Yes some people are about the money, but not all! |
| Hannah I'm sorry but that is a perfect example of a bad reason people breed their dogs. If you want "a little part of her" get a pup from the same breeder, or bloodlines your dog came from. |
| Why should I buy a pup I know nothing about, It took me long enough to find her and SHE is the one I want a puppy from. I am a responsible owner and would make sure any puppy I had went to a good home. Breeding may not be right for you and that's fine, you have a right to your own opinion |
| Why would it be a pup you know nothing about? Did you know nothing about your pup that you have now when you bought it? Is that a good way to begin breeding? |
| I voted for a breeding catagory. Number one reason is education, teach the consumer what information a breeder should give you and educate yourself on what to ask a breeder. There is a book called Your Pure Bred Puppy it has all this information in it. If you found a line of OES buy another puppy from that breeder that is easier then having a litter and a lot more responsible.
What scares me is what happens when all the responsible breeders retire where do we get out next puppy from? |
| That is exactly why responsible breeders mentor new breeders. To get them on the right track so to speak... to pass on their knowledge and experience, and to ensure their lines continue. |
| Willowspire said what I wanted to...
From every dog forum I've been to, this is the VERY reason "breeding topics" are not allowed unless heavily monitored. Even then, it is only allowed because 90% of the board (most prolific posters) are people who feel the same way was Willowsprite and BritPresSyd (and of course the person who started this thread). The owner of the boards know that the correct info will be passed. MAJORITY of people who want to breed have good intentions (if not forever ...at least at first). However good intentions do not equal "who should breed." I know most people know it takes a lot of time and MONEY to do this, but many do not consider what dogs SHOULD be bred to BETTER the overall breed. Some will still breed ...okay, let's not lie... MOST... w/o really looking into the dog's health AND the entire history/line the dog came from. Or are under the impression that "if my vet says it's okay, he/she must be right." Vets (H E L L O) ...only tell you what is healthy or not healthy for your dog. their expertise is NOT in breeding or any specific breed UNLESS they own one or the majority of the town has one. This is the TRUTH. VERY FEW know the details outside of what is taught in medical school. they're the ones who encourage you to get your dog at 6 wks for breeds that should not be weened until much later. the owner goes misinformed FOREVER and ends up breeding UNHEALTHY dogs. Because quite frankly, the vet is right. The dog you brought to them weened WAY too early WILL be okay if you do this, this, and that. However, they failed to mention ...what was BEST THOUGH was if the dog was not given to you until 8 or 12 wks (depending on the breed, etc). |
| I can't believe how stupid this all sounds!!!!
If you don't agree with breeding get out of this topic. Don't start slamming owners and vets just because you think your right. As far as knowing nothing about my dog, your correct, I didn't know anything at first, but I sure found out alot before deciding which puppy to buy. I'm not here to argue, I just think it would be okay to have a forum where if someone is looking to breed maybe they could come here and talk with someone who really cares about sheepdogs. |
| That's great that you're not here to argue Hannah, because this forum is known for it's warmth and friendliness and ability to handle heated topics with respect and civility. No one else is arguing. We each have a right to state our own opinions. This topic is going to cause debate. This topic is going to cause disagreements. This topic is going to have varying opinions on many issues relating to it. What matters most is that we are able to keep our cool. I love this forum and do not want to see people leave, or have hurt feelings because one or more people is unable to discuss something in a civil manner. If you think it is stupid no one is forcing you to read it, or participate in it. |
| No hurt feelings here!
This topic is going to upset some people and like you said we all have opinions on the subject. We should be able to talk to each other without slamming anyone for the way they feel. I enjoy talking to everyone and hope there are not hurt feelings else where. |
| There is definitely a need, to a degree, to get younger people interested in the breed. Frank's breeder is in her fifties and many of the other breeder-owners that I met in the show ring are also in that same age range or a little older. I'm sure it has a lot to do with lifestyles of people that are younger not having the time to travel to shows, etc. Certainly I wouldn't want to see the breed die out but I would hate to see someone who is overanxious to have a litter of puppies for their "kids to experience" and answer a post by someone that says "Looking for a stud in Alabama". I can't condemn someone that loves their dog and would like to have one of its puppies, but I would hope that they would really do their research to not only check into the background of any phsyical health issues but also try to find the best behavior tendencies. There are a few people on this forum that are planning on having a first time OES litter and are certainly doing their homework. But I do remember someone that posted on this forum a few months ago with major aggression issues with their dog asking about how to take care of the problem now because they wanted to breed their dog in the near future. That doesn't make sense to me.
As far as what I would call "responsible breeders", OES of America, as I understand, consists of a lot of people who show their dogs and have dedicated a huge portion of their life to the breed or dogs in general. A responsible breeder for example will realize if their is a problem with the bloodline, ie., cancer, that they will no longer breed a dog with that bloodline to curtail unhealthy dogs being born. Look at that crazy woman on puppyfind that constantly tries to tout "all white" dogs and a lot of them are deaf. I don't know how she can live with herself. OES of America offer mentors to educate you about the breed as well as your own breeder should be willing to give you that time also. For example, my breeder is in WV but she put me in contact with another long time breeder in NJ that has helped me with learning how to groom. I know that is a sensitive subject, and since it seems to be leaning to having its own topic on this forum, I'm hoping at least everyone can help educate people about the responsibilities of breeding which extend past just finding the "perfect home" for one of their pups. |
| Hannah I'm sorry if I came off too strong.... I should have worded it differently.... anyway... VerveUp worded it very well.... there is so much to it all... and I hope the forum can be a place where we can all learn, and support one another, and do what's best for these furballs we love. |
| Hannah,
I am really sorry for the tone of some of the responses you have received. While I might or might not agree with what others have had to say, I don't agree with the way some of it has been said. You are right, everyone is entitled to their opinion here; I think that's one of the things that makes this place as good as it is. But nobody should be berated for expressing their opinion. I can understand how you feel that about having a puppy from your girl! Joan and I used to kid about having our dog cloned (since he had been neutered) because we wanted to keep his great spirit alive! We loved him probably as much as we could love anything. Of course cloning was out of our reach financially, and he was agressive anyway, so we probably wouldn't do it even if it were technically and financially feasible. We were closer to having him stuffed and mounted and put on the dashboard of our motorhome, but that was just kidding too -though Grannie Annie wasn't so sure! Everytime I would kid her by bringing it up, she would just avert her eyes and clam up... lol!!! That said, a puppy from the same breeder or from the same bloodlines should have a lot of similar traits to what you love about your dog, maybe even more than the traits you'll get from your dog mated with a healthy out-of-the-bloodline dog. If you want to breed your dog, hopefully you've come to the right place to learn some of what you need to know before you proceed. I'm really glad you found us! Let's learn together! |
| Thanks but I 'm fine with all we talked about. We are all adults here and I enjoy reading everyone's advice. I really love it here!
I'm not even certain that I will breed my dog. I do know that I am a responsible owner and would also be a conscientious breeder. I really hate calling it " a breeder" because I didn't just decide it would be fun to have a litter and that any male dog will do, or to make a fast buck. I am a vet tech and BELIEVE ME I see all the genetic, hereditary, and temperament problems associated with irresponsible breeding every single day. If I ever breed my sheepdog you can best bet her mate will be well researched and have certification of disease-free hips, eyes, and hearing. Because I will provide the same proof on my dog. Most important, I would screen all potential owners to make sure they understand the commitment sheepdogs require and can provide a good, lasting and loving home. I would want the puppy back at any time if it were found to be unhealthy or unwanted. Again with all that said, I believe a breeding forum could and would provide lots of education to anyone that may want to breed oneday. |
| I agree Ron as that's what I like about this place ..it's wonderful to share our experiences amongst ourselves.
Here's my take on the subject. Just the other day at the dog park someone mentioned the exact thing - they loved their dog so much they wanted him to bred so they could have a puppy to carry on his line. This persons interest was genuine and I could definately relate as I've had 7 dogs over the years and 25 cats. My question to him was "what about the other 5 pups in the litter, what would happen to them?" He assured me he would find equally good homes for them. Here's where I would have concerns however: You see for many years my family and now myself have adopted 6 of those dogs and 25 of those cats from shelters, many from well meaning people whom may have felt the same way. Now please don't think I am accusing you of being inconsiderate of the other pups in that litter but the ones that eventually get those ones may. Let me explain. The ones that get the other pups in the litter would not be breeders and may not get their dogs neutered or spayed - a reputable breeder keeps in contact with every single person that gets one of the pups. A legally signed contract is made between the breeder and whomever gets the pup assuring that the pup will be spayed or neutered if for whatever reason they should not be used to continue that line. Someone not familiar with this procedure may give/sell the pups to "really good homes" but they too may feel the same and breed the dog to get one of the pups...the cycle begins again..what happens to the other puppies in the litter? When I was hired by the Humane Education Society to educate the public on dog behavior and How to be kind to pets I would ask the following to a group. Those of you that want a puppy or kitten stand up. I would then choose one child to stand and we'd imagine they just got a kitten. Now would you want you kitten to grow up and have kittens? Of course the kids would nod yes..I mean who wouldn't want a cute little ball of fluff? Okay now you have 7. " I now need 6 more kids to stand up as each one of you would take a kitten. ...6 months later...those kittens have kittens themselves..okay that may be at least 36 of you now stand up...then 6 months later those 36 have 6....Of course each and every time they would be no one else to stand up left to take the gazillions kittens. In theory not a home for all those left over, although the original ones all got homes. In a nutshell an unspayed kitten may have over 1000 offspring in less than 18 months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dogs aren't as prolific as cats but the theory is the same ...a person may find wonderful homes for their dogs puppies but what about if those puppies are allowed to breed or their offspring? I admit I'm a bit hard nosed when it comes to people claiming they want their pet to have at least one litter. I'm the one that usually adopts the sickly, old or unwanted leftovers that end up at the shelters. Last year was the first time in 25 years I got myself a puppy and really did the research. All my previous OES were rescue or shelter dogs. Merlin is the one that came from a reputable breeder after I called the AKC to ask them to give me a list of those they would recommend. Boy was that woman tough!!! You'd think I was buying her child!!! I was happy she grilled me about everything as a dog is for life. Even the best intentioned people love their new puppies and kittens but as they grow and become more demanding...many end up in shelters where people are not apt to get them at a 1 year or 2 or 6 ..or 10. Who would? When there are so many cute puppies and kittens! I end up adopting those ones and there is only so much I can do as just last year over 1200 dogs in my area weren't so lucky and were put down. Yes, I am hard nosed concerning this but I feel I have a right to say something as I'm the one that ends up with a small majority of the unwanted animals. A reputable breeder ask for the puppies/dogs to be returned to them if for whatever reason the family is unable to keep them. To prevent them from ending up in shelters. I ask everyone whom is considering breeding if they are willing to do that? Some things to consider and hopefully I brought up some things that people can continue to discuss. Marianne Merlin Panda Blue Daisy Paris Lil Girl Mama Kat |
| it almost sounds as if you are angry you have shelter pets, not saying you love them any less
I have several shelter pets and feel very lucky to have them |
| I don't see at all how she comes off as angry. She comes off as someone who would like to educate, inform, and share an experience.
These replies may offend some, but are easily thought by majority of animal fanatics. Again, just venture on other boards ...and you will see quickly that most popular/most viewed ones all will share the same thoughts with you. Of course if in your head (your being a reader in general...no one specific) you were/are someone who wanted to do the above...it would come off as an attack and/or offensive. However, to those who have been in the circle for many years ...it would only look as common info. that would be irresponsible NOT to pass along. If someone already knows this info, they are usually in the "yeah we've checked marked all those areas" category and understand why those looking in from the outside have so many questions. |
| Hey everyone lets just drop it. It's obvious we all have our different opinions and we are going in circles here.
Doesn't anyone have some new pictures to post or a funny sheep story??? Let's all take a break, look at our hairy friends...and give them a big hug. oh yeah,....you can pet your dogs to!! haha |
I agree with what everyone has said here. I replied to the "looking for stud in Alabama" after I first joined the forum.  I must admit at that time I had not done as much research about the OES as I have now. Had I known then what I know now ........ well you know. After being a member of this forum for a while, I tried to redeem myself by my second post.
I do not believe that this would become a place to stud,sell and breed, as Ron probably would not let it get to that point. |
| I think the new registration that AKC has will help control the impulse breeder as some papers do not permit the dog to breed I think it is limited registration, there is another where you work with the breeder of your dog if you want to breed, I can't remember the title. It is a step in the right direction. I have had pets so a limited registration is just fine with me. Maybe those interested in breeding can get in touch with their breeder or find one that would allow you to be an appretice at breeding and show you all the work that is involved, that would certainly help. |
| I am one that is still thinking of breeding. I will share my views with some of you, and will realize that some of you may or may not feel the same way. I understand where all of you are coming from, to those of you who would love to have just one litter to those who do so much for rescue.
If I decide to breed my babies, there is going to be a lot of work to do. I have learned so much, and realize that I still have lots more to learn. I don't have the titles to back up my dogs, that is why if I breed, the puppy registration would be marked with limited registrations. I want to take this a step further though as there are some that would breed a dog regardless of the papers being marked not for breeding. In my contract, which is not completed yet, it is still in the thinking process, I want to offer a $50 reimbursement to the owner when I get proof of speutering. I also plan on staying in touch and offering guidance throughout the dogs life as well as if for ANY reason the new owner can not keep the puppy/dog then he/she must be returned to me. In my eyes that doesn't matter if the puppy is only 14 weeks old or 14 years old and needs thousands of dollars worth of medical bills, if I bring any animal into this world I am responsible for that animal until the day it crosses the rainbow bridge. I have other thoughts for my contract as well, including a $25 reimbursement when the new puppy owner takes the puppy to a training class, I was thinking we would reimburse up $50 for up to 2 training classes. Did I word that right? I want to screen every potential parent, but in case I didn't do as well as I thought in screening, maybe this will prevent someone bringing back a 10 months old untrained sheepie. That if they would have spent a little time training, could have turned into a wonderful lifetime pet. I also hear some of you are wanting to breed once for one litter. I am not here to argue with you, I just want to mention some things. When breeding a sheepdog, you can a lot of the times expect 8-12 puppies. Even though you are only having one litter, you should still test for everything you can think of, and more. The reason...the puppies are going to homes that will love them, some will think of their puppy as a hairy child and you will want to do everything possible to assure that the puppy will not have any defects as he/she grows up. I think that is my biggest fear, is something going wrong and devistating a family. We will begin testing soon on Jack and Annabelle, we are going to start out with the "easier" tests. The BAER test for hearing and CERF test for eyes will be the first ones we will start with. If they pass those with flying colors we will go on to the thyroid panel by Dr. Dodds, it also will check for anemia, kidney and liver function as well as epilepsy. We will finish with a cardiologist and OFA for hips. If any other testing is recommended, we will also check into it. When we get the results back, and if any test comes back showing it would be a bad idea to breed, then we spay and neuter Jack and Annie. This is my dream, my goal to one day be a reputable breeder, it might not be my time now, but it will be something I strive for. I hope that my post helped a little. I am not trying to ruffle any sheepie hairs, this is only my views.
Stormi and co. |
| Wow Stormi... You really sound like a responsible breeder, there are so many things in consideration. I tought about breedeing Lennon some time in the future to "keep his spirit live" but we drastically changed our minds when Sofa and Frida arrived, we saw that no matter how careful you are, your litter can end up in the wrong hands.
Kudos to you for taking the time to learn and work on the correct way for breeding... My next OES baby is coming from you. |
| I agree Saulmr.... Stormi is going to contribute a lot to the OES world I think.... |
| If there were only more like Stormi - then there would be more OES puppies available from responsible breeders. That's part of the problem now - there aren't alot available - so people tend to go with the ones that are available (BYBs, Puppy Mills, etc.)
Just to clarify - Stormi and those others who plan to breed responsibly weren't the type of breeder I was suggesting were in it for the money. I was referring to irresponsible breeders - who don't do any of the testing that Stormi mentions - and don't consider much of anything before they proceed. Kristen |
| Stormi sounds like she has great ideas. I hope things work out well for your dogs and all testing comes back great!!
Hey why is it that nobody had any negative comments for her. I said pretty much the same thing, yet its all negative remarks or just no reply's. I may not be welcome here anymore after saying this, but I feel like I've joined a private party and really don't feel welcome. I understand alot of you are really close because you have been members for a long time, but maybe open up and extend that warm friendly greeting to everyone. Hope you will try and give everyone new a chance to be friends also. |
| Hannah, speaking for myself, and I think many others, no one meant to make you feel that way. I know I didn't. I am just very intense when it comes to these guys.... but I think Stormi got a different reaction not only because she is well known and loved here, but also because she posted a well thought out plan, her dream and goal first and foremost is healthy, happy dogs, who will be with loving families for their entire lives. I'm not criticizing you, but please look at it from someone else's point of view.
If you were someone who was looking to buy a pup, and you talked to two breeders, and one said all the things Stormi said, and one said I bred my dogs because I wanted a puppy.... which would you choose? I understand you were just expressing a desire, and I understand that! After my cat Oliver died, I was devastated and wished I had not had him neutered because I would have loved to have a peice of him as well. However that was only a fleeting desire, not something I would have ever done because it would have been irresponsible to breed a pet quality cat who ended up dying of vaccine related sarcoma at only 6 years old. It's great that you are thinking about this and taking it seriously, and I'm very glad you plan to do testing and research before you decide....
There is a great post in another topic by Cathy.... in the stud in alabama thread.... about breeding etc.... This forum really is a family. We care about our dogs, and each other, and the breed in general. I hope you'll give us a chance to get to know you, so that we can all learn from each other.... |
| Hannah,
I am sorry you feel this way. This isn't the case - honestly - I'm happy to have varying opinions shared. I didn't read the same things in your post as in Stormi's - but I will go back and re-read them.
I hope your feelings of not being welcome fade - because everyone is certainly welcome as far as I'm concerned. I think this is a great way for us all to learn - by sharing their views and opinions (of course, politely and respectfully) and stories. Please post MORE so we get to know you!!!! Kristen |
| They may not feel it amongst themselves, but this forum has gotten clicky. I made mention of breeding months ago, and got the same cold shoulder, and same responses you are. I felt I too got jumped on and attacked by the same friendly people. I got past it, and came to realize everyone is intitled to an opinion, and as long as I can hold my tounge, and look past personal differences of opinions, then I can visit here, and see that person/people as someone that loves their dog just as much as I love mine.
Now in my experience you will get this reaction from every forum you go to, people don't want to wait to see if you will be a "good" breeder or not, or how much research or testing you've done. So, it's just better not to mention it at all, and seek your info from books, vets, other friendly breeders willing to help you, even mentor you. I have friends in both the CKC breeding world, and others...that have given me alot of helpful information on what to do or who to see for testing. I don't post very much anymore, but I have met other great people here, and I post pictures, or stories for them. I no longer seek breeding advice, or any other advice actually. So don't take it personnally what some say, breeding is a real sore spot for some. We all hate to read stories about puppy mills, or have personal bad experiences about their rescue dogs... It is up to the consumer and the fact of supply and demand, we can say no, or have the right to expect alot from a breeder. If noone buys that puppy from Joe down the street, then they may not breed again. If the shelter closes that door to the breeder who wants to dump off any puppy not sold, they may think twice. Pet stores too wouldn't sell puppies if we never bought one from them, then they would cause a chain reaction and put out the puppy mill business. I also found a great website to get the information of what goes wrong in breeding, at www.canadasguidetodogs.com/forbreeders.htm Anyways, good luck to you. |
| Outside of breeding, as I agree with most of your statements to why we are up and arms ....I don't think we are rude or unfair to any posters.
Some people get more replies because quite frankly ...they post a lot, so that is how many of us have gotten to know them (even if they do not know us). I am a new poster and can "see" where you're coming from (regarding clicks), but it only made me try that much harder to get in the mix of conversations/threads. To me, this has opened up many e-friendships that started over PM's. I also feel when a new person arrives, many posters go out of their way to make them feel welcomed. Many don't post for a few days or a week and will bump the thread up (even if it's at the bottom) just to say "Howdy." that has surprised me. this forum is nicer than any other one I've been to. I really don't see how one can expect NOT to bump heads with such controversial topics (barf diet, crate training, breeding, breeders, etc). Just expressing your opinion in a general not rude way will hurt someone's feeling if they are on the polar opposite side of opinions. I e-love STORMI ((hugs)) |
| Well, I guess with this thread we touched a very sensitive spot in the forum, the least thing we want is unloved puppies anywhere, specially the members who have adopted a dog or have seen a puppy mill.
I guess by no means we try to be mean or rude, but, at least for me, that I consider my dogs as my children (Maybe that's because I sitll don't have any children of my own  ), issues that open the possibility for mistreated dogs burn a spark on us... I once tought it would be cool to breed dogs, then people like Stormi convinced me otherwise. I have been asked from people to get them rescue dogs for the purpose of breeding and lost a friendship because of that, now I'm a very strong advocate for neutering and spaying and try to convince everyone I know to do that to their dogs, so I can relate to the NOOOO!!! feeling when I hear that someone wants to breed dogs, but if the person is really informed and wants to do things right, then I wish the best for them, they have me cheering them from behind. |
| This topic is always one that touches a nerve. However, I don't think that sharing an opposing opinion than another member - is being rude or un-welcoming.
My feelings about irresponsible breeding is from personal experience (not Rescue related)- and came before I got involved with Rescue. It was actually what got me involved with Rescue. As I've said before, Presley is from a irresponsible and disreputable breeder (which we didn't realize at the time). She's not a rescue! Does this look like a normal, healthy 5 month old OES puppy? Her "breeder" told me this was "normal" (which I knew that it wasn't - we had 5 OES before her!). 
Presley's great - but she has her "issues" - which alot of people wouldn't be able to deal with (and many who have her siblings haven't been able to deal with and they've ended up in Rescue). Several Bearded Collies from this breeder (she breeds OES & Beardies) haven't been able to be placed in rescue and had to be euthanized (after exhausting attempts at rehab'ng them)! We have been very lucky (which the Vet reminds me of everytime we see him). Others from this same breeder haven't been so lucky! Hopefully, we'll continue to be lucky and she'll be healthy into her teens. Don't get me wrong - I wouldn't trade her in for the world and I love her to peices - but I wouldn't think about ever getting another dog from this breeder or any other breeder that is not highly recommended by the people in the OES world that KNOW they are responsible. When you've learned something - why not share it with others! If my post prevents one person from buying a puppy from an irresponsible breeder (and I'm not just talking puppy mills) - then it's worth it! I welcome any differing opinions or sharing of experiences. Kristen |
| [ would make sure any puppy I had went to a good home.
okay i have read enough. I have to put my 2 Cents worth in here now. I have been 'owned' by OES now for over 30 years. I have been activly breeding and showing since 1979. I have placed the title of Champion on many dogs, not all of my own breeding. Some of the titles hae come from other countries. So those are my credentials on that. ALL of the dogs I breed have been shown and are either pointed or finished. All of them have their eyes CERF'd, and have had hip x-rays taken and either OFA'd, BVA'd or Letters from Board Certified Radiologist on hand. That being said, let me tell you about being a breeder. Are you prepared to have to pay for stud fees? All of the pre testing needing to be done? What about the projesterone testings (can run up to 400.00 per breeding), we won't even go into the cost of shipping in semen from a decent dog if you go that way. Are you prepared for a C-section? If it is done after hours can run up to $1500! Are you then prepared to have only 1 or 2 puppies? You will be the one bottle feeding and trying to keep (not always but a good portion of the time) the mom when coming off of the anesthesia from eating the puppies? Thi can go on for 2 or 3 days. Are you prepared to lose the whole litter of puppies? Or worse, your bitch? OR BOTH? Are you prepared to sleep besides the whelping box for 2 weeks by yourself? Hoping for a few hours of sleep at a time when someone could come and releive you a bit? Are you financailly able to be off of work for 7 weeks? Now, we come to the fun stuff. ARE YOU PREPARED TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT DOG FOR THE NEXT 10 YEARS OR MORE OF ITS LIFE? This past year, I have had to go and take back 2 dogs because they were not being taken care of in the manner they were supposed to. One has gone to a good home. This is the one that they just HAD to have this pup. Sounded good home at the time. 3 years later, I stop by to see them and the dog isn't even living with them. He doesn't like the dog, it was his "wifes dog". Dog comes over and he physically imo mistreats the dog in front of me. It took a court to sort out my contract, but they had to give the dog back to me, AND pay all the court/attorney bills. The other came back to me Christmas week, after 3 years because "he travels too much and just doesn't have the time for her anymore" This girl is 7 years old. How do you think she feels? Bouncing back and forth. The dogs don't know. On top of that, she was in season and I spayed her, OH and he hadn't given her any shots in 3 years either! So there was another $300.00 out of my pocket. Christmas? We didn't have any christmas here at all because the dogs had it all. And the Vet's. Unless you are able to take care of all of the above and do it correctly, you have no business breeding dogs. We have too many as it is bouncing in and out of rescue. I for one will be breeding for ME when it comes time to do a breeding. The pups will be here as long as I can feesable keep them and then only go to homes that I am 100% sure of. |
| I was just re-reading this thread and caught this for the first time:
Quote: The internet is making it easier for them now - it's easier to order a puppy than it is order a Pizza!
LOL LOL speaking of which, that sounds so good right about now. extra onions!!! (no wonder i have stinky feet?) |
| Exactly what Ali was saying, that's why I think they should have a place on the forum so people can learn about stuff past a cute litter of puppies. I don't know if anyone will agree here or not, but I still feel those who truly want to do it right, and follow through on the litter, will be the ones looking for good insight, not to be slammed down about having an idea. Just getting the facts, and wanting to know more, esp what goes wrong, not today but years from now.
Thank you Ali, for your insights and experiences. I hope these dogs are doing better, and you are able to find a new home for them. |
| Ali- I don't think your point can be stressed enough- breeding is not always joyful, it can be heartbreaking too. My mother was just finishing her breeding of shelties when I was a little girl. (After many years of deciating herself to bettering the breed, and turning out champions in confirmation and agility, she decided to dedicate herself to raising us- something whic I'm daily thankful for!) Her last litter was from our house dog- Eve- a great bitch with a gorgeous head piece and a soul that is unmatched in any dog I've met since.
Let me tell you, that was not an easy labor. She went in well into the night, one of the pups had to be revived (Ever seen the original 101 dalmation from Disney- try that in real life!), and a week after, we lost that pup. Luckily for us, Eve pulled through fine, and the rest of the litter all went to great homes. If you choose to breed, please, keep in mind that you may face heart break. It's not always puppies and roses! Karen |
| thank you for your note. I don't intend to come accross so 'angry' but yes, I AM angry at the 2 people that took my dogs saying they would be 'good homes' for them. One dog was not treated correctly at all and the other when I told them that since they had never shown her, and she was7 she was too old to have a litter I think that is when his wife said she didn't want her any more because she would not make any $. People jst never fail to amaze me anymore.
I am still looking for a good home for Sophie. I just cannot keep her here. I must know where she is going to be living. Right now we are 'shuffling' dogs, 3 up with me and 3 down with my husband. She absolutely hates cats. She went after my Peepers last night. Then she nipped at Carmela. She HAS to be in a single dog home. I may have to think about the worst solution there is but I have to think about her too if something doesn't come along. That's the other hard part of being a breeder that no one wants to think or hear about. Ali |
| Hi All,
Wow this is a hot topic, and really - I think it is something that we need to all sit back quietly and think about for a second. What are we, as an oes loving group after? From the majority of the posts I've read we want: An end to irresponsible breeding practices An end to oes suffering in homes, puppy mills, etc where they suffer and are abused An end to pet over population Wow- those are really big desires and all of them are very valid. It is really hard for us to end any of those by ourselves. Well, that being said, what can we do to help end those things? Promote responsible breeding practices. This seems to me to be the biggest thing any of us can do to help out. Despite our recently gloomy discussions, yes- those responsible breeders are out there. Yes, they are doing a FANTASTIC JOB! These are the folks who are breeding great dogs- who are keeping health issues to a minimum, who are teaching us all more about this breed we love so much. Does this mean that we devote a seperate forum to supporting these folks, to educating people about what it means to be a great breeder, to encouraging more people to join their ranks, for all of the right reasons- I don't know. I do know that we need them- and that this breed, as with any other breed of animal, needs them too. Karen |
| That is a good post Karen we all want the best for the OES breed. However the invention of the internet has over populated the breed with not quality dogs. I had plenty of time while waiting for Oreo about 10 months and I thought that all these breeders were the same boy was I fooled I was lied to told that pre breeding tests were not necessary and so on. These folks are still breeding and selling their dogs, I can't understand how anyone could avoid testing prior to breeding I never thought that people would do such a thing I was very nieve but have learned alot. Responsible breeders interview a potential puppy owner prior to selling you one of their dogs, that day we went for our interview was one of the greatest days my husband and I had we met out puppy Oliver and lots of his extended family I wanted to stay there and hug all those great pups. When we got Oreo we did not need an interview we had done that already. Many responsible breeders have waiting lists and so we were on one and waited a long time for Oreo I would do it again in a heart beat.
Breeding has some basic simple rules to follow we use genetic counseling for babies why is it so hard for some to test prior to breeding, it must be the cost, how sad that money is more important then our most loved breed. It would be awesome to rid the breed of certain genetic diseases but that is a dream. |
| Ali,
that's great that you are so pro-active in checking in on your dogs. And aggressively winning your dogs back from a court system which never seems to be pro-animal is a great thing that you are doing. I hope you will find homes for them. As far as delivery horror stories, my accountant is very active in showing champion Irish Setters and she tried breeding her one all-star bitch. A fluke thing happened, and the mother somehow got E. Coli in her birth canal and the puppies were born but not in good shape - their toes were literally falling off. Needless to say that it was heartwrenching and all the pups had to end up being put down because their survival rate was not good. Just because of that one fluke incident, she has not tried to breed her champion girl again and take another chance. btw... were you by any chance in New England a few months ago? My neighbor said she met a "Gwynned Sheepdogs" woman and I was wondering if it was you since I recognized the name from the OES List. |
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