First herding experience for my OES and Belgian Malinois
This all started with a query at my local vets office about anyone local who might actually train dogs in that venue. As it turned out, there is a place about 7 miles from my house that actually does herding, agility, and working dog training. I made the call and we all trekked off to the adventure today. The couple who operate this facility have several Malinois, a Border Collie and lots of sheep, ducks etc. Their farm is well situated in the rolling hills of NE Nassau County and was well laid out for stock work. There were several different breeds of dogs training there today: Briard (interesting dog...great work drive!) Australian Cattle Dogs, Belgian Malinois and Tuerevens, and of course my Sheepie and Mali. Being new to this, we watched quite a bit after my dogs introduction to herding and we all learned a lot. I was impressed with the Mali's performance... She was first at bat and took an immediate interest in the three sheep but did not chase or scatter them and did what her handler wanted her to do (she was on rope most of the time). The Sheepie was my source of "anxious interest" as he was shaking both of his back legs and whining while watching the Mali in the pen with the sheep. His handler took a bit of time introducing him into the pen...he is a young, strong dog and is still a bit rambunctuous when he wants to be, but settled down quick and went straight to work. There was no attention problem here....focus was the order of the day....I have never seen him more focused, actually. My Shaggy (his name) did very well! He was finally let off rope and herded the sheep into a corner and then when one broke he aggressively chased and pinned the sheep in a corner and to the suprise of us all started licking its face!  No fetch drive here (yet). He responded well to verbal commands (to my delight) and came out of the pen with a sheepie smile on his face (course he wanted to return immediately however, that was enough for one day).
Interesting introduction and after watching the other dogs work, I can see that there is a lot to herding. It was finally nice to see my OES discover his true profession. I overheard a conversation while my dog was herding about the OES and wanted some real advice from those who understand herding and know the breed. It was mentioned that OES are seldom if ever seen in AKC championship herding trials...is this true? It would seem that they are too independent and cannot maintain control from the jixt of what I heard? Any thoughts on this? Either way, it was a fun day and I will be back with the OES....he had a blast! And the Mali too.! |
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| Wow!
I can't answer your questions, but I can ask one: Didja take any pictures?????  |
7skydive wrote: I overheard a conversation while my dog was herding about the OES and wanted some real advice from those who understand herding and know the breed. It was mentioned that OES are seldom if ever seen in AKC championship herding trials...is this true? It would seem that they are too independent and cannot maintain control from the jixt of what I heard? Any thoughts on this?
Either way, it was a fun day and I will be back with the OES....he had a blast! And the Mali too.! That's not true at all. We hear the same thing in the obedience & agility areas. First off, there just aren't that many people out there owning OES versus say Shelties or Border Collies or Collies. Take a look at the numbers it takes for a major in conformation among the different herding breeds. This is one of the first clues. Then factor in today's lifestyles. Most people purchasing an OES just want a good healthy family companion with shaggy hair. Secondly, herding is a relatively expensive venue to persue versus other performance events & conformation. I'm not saying these other areas don't take a large investment in money & time but I know first hand that weekly herding lessons in my area cost 6 times as much as me taking my dog to conformation handling class or 4-1/2 times as much as taking my dog to a good competitive obedience class. And finding a good place to train in herding is another issue. I have to drive an hour to the nearest (thank goodness it is a good one) one to me. And depending on whom you purchase your OES from, some lines just don't have a strong herding instinct. As for them being independent & not able to maintain control............Independent yes. OES are supposed to be independent thinkers at times. That's what makes them good drover's dogs. Maintaining control.......I'd say that is more a training issue between the handler & the dog. Once you get inside their head & they understand what you expect of them there should be no problem as far as maintaining control. Some OES are just too "soft" for herding & the sheep will let you know right off by stomping their feet. But one thing for sure, it is awesome to watch your dog perk up his ears, grow intent on watching the sheep & then enter the arena on his own accord & "know" what the 2 of you are in there for. It's like he is saying "YES! Finally! I am doing what I was originally bred to do!" |
| where in fla was this duffy would love it |
| Congratulations!!! I bet you all had so much fun. And the source of pride watching Shaggy just "know what to do" must have been awesome! I'm excited for you! |
| I'm glad you had a good time. It really is a fun activity to do with your herding breed dogs. |
ChSheepdogs wrote: 7skydive wrote: I overheard a conversation while my dog was herding about the OES and wanted some real advice from those who understand herding and know the breed. It was mentioned that OES are seldom if ever seen in AKC championship herding trials...is this true? It would seem that they are too independent and cannot maintain control from the jixt of what I heard? Any thoughts on this? Either way, it was a fun day and I will be back with the OES....he had a blast! And the Mali too.! That's not true at all. We hear the same thing in the obedience & agility areas. First off, there just aren't that many people out there owning OES versus say Shelties or Border Collies or Collies. Take a look at the numbers it takes for a major in conformation among the different herding breeds. This is one of the first clues. Then factor in today's lifestyles. Most people purchasing an OES just want a good healthy family companion with shaggy hair. Secondly, herding is a relatively expensive venue to persue versus other performance events & conformation. I'm not saying these other areas don't take a large investment in money & time but I know first hand that weekly herding lessons in my area cost 6 times as much as me taking my dog to conformation handling class or 4-1/2 times as much as taking my dog to a good competitive obedience class. And finding a good place to train in herding is another issue. I have to drive an hour to the nearest (thank goodness it is a good one) one to me. And depending on whom you purchase your OES from, some lines just don't have a strong herding instinct. As for them being independent & not able to maintain control............Independent yes. OES are supposed to be independent thinkers at times. That's what makes them good drover's dogs. Maintaining control.......I'd say that is more a training issue between the handler & the dog. Once you get inside their head & they understand what you expect of them there should be no problem as far as maintaining control. Some OES are just too "soft" for herding & the sheep will let you know right off by stomping their feet. But one thing for sure, it is awesome to watch your dog perk up his ears, grow intent on watching the sheep & then enter the arena on his own accord & "know" what the 2 of you are in there for. It's like he is saying "YES! Finally! I am doing what I was originally bred to do!" ALso OES are drovers not likely to fetch until taught. I tried four instructors before I found one that understood how upright dogs herd versus border collies etc. I agree with Marilyn that expense may have something to do with it - but I also think the lack of good upright herding instructors is a big factor. you can't train an OES to be a border collie no matter how hard you try. My instructor is 2 hours from my home and I only get to go once or twice a month which also slows down progress. |
kerry wrote: ALso OES are drovers not likely to fetch until taught. I tried four instructors before I found one that understood how upright dogs herd versus border collies etc. I agree with Marilyn that expense may have something to do with it - but I also think the lack of good upright herding instructors is a big factor. you can't train an OES to be a border collie no matter how hard you try. My instructor is 2 hours from my home and I only get to go once or twice a month which also slows down progress.
Absolutely. And it may be a numbers game, but the bottom line is we have obedience trial champions and an agility trial champion but not a single dog who has ever really been in the running for a herding championship. The best we've done so far is two (2) OES who have excellent level titles. Embarrassing. Though, in fairness, the AKC program really is not designed to the strengths of even an exceptional OES, so there is that as well. An OES breeder out west who also has border collies and is a herding judge once estimated (I hope I'm not misquoting here  ) that about 2/3 of OES have retained the original instinct (that doesn't mean they have natural TALENT, just that they have the basic instinct - which is all most of us test for, if at all - and enjoy chasing sheep around  ), and that this is remarkable considering 99+ % of breeders don't remotely select for it (oh, we may test our dogs, but when push comes to shove that's not how we make our breeding decisions).
I sold a puppy to someone with a working sheep farm with the caveat: "well, his mom tested well (actually, she was fun to work with and had a lot more eye than I've ever seen in an OES), and his great aunt is as high drive as they come (translation: I hope she was herding and not just chasing sheep to her heart's content), but who the heck knows?" 
I notice he is out there pulling sleds and dogfood and lord knows what, anything but HERDING. Hm....DAWN????? 
I do think they can make nice allround farm dogs, not really specialists in anything, and that this is closer to the breed's original intent. Lord knows they will never outperform a wellbred, welltrained working BC, but I think they have their uses. Anyone attending the national: make sure you get to the herding trial!! Susan Rassas from AZ is bringing several dogs up including what is probably the best OES herding dog the breed has ever seen, in this country at least, her Higgins. He's not a kid anymore, so watch him while you can and I hope someone will be videotaping. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: kerry wrote: Also OES are drovers not likely to fetch until taught. I tried four instructors before I found one that understood how upright dogs herd versus border collies etc. I agree with Marilyn that expense may have something to do with it - but I also think the lack of good upright herding instructors is a big factor. you can't train an OES to be a border collie no matter how hard you try. My instructor is 2 hours from my home and I only get to go once or twice a month which also slows down progress. Absolutely. And it may be a numbers game, but the bottom line is we have obedience trial champions and an agility trial champion but not a single dog who has ever really been in the running for a herding championship. The best we've done so far is two (2) OES who have excellent level titles. Embarrassing. Though, in fairness, the AKC program really is not designed to the strengths of even an exceptional OES, so there is that as well. Definitely - the AKC test is not designed for drovers as best I can understand it but rather for the BCs I sold a puppy to someone with a working sheep farm with the caveat: "well, his mom tested well (actually, she was fun to work with and had a lot more eye than I've ever seen in an OES), and his great aunt is as high drive as they come (translation: I hope she was herding and not just chasing sheep to her heart's content), but who the heck knows?" I notice he is out there pulling sleds and dogfood and lord knows what, anything but HERDING. Hm....DAWN????? Well the one common thread you will hear from herding instructors is that herding is the hardest thing you will ever do with your dog - sorry Dawn the second most common thing I have heard is that the tests don't really accurately reflect a herding dogs job - so maybe we have better field dogs than test dogs I do think they can make nice all-round farm dogs, not really specialists in anything, and that this is closer to the breed's original intent. Lord knows they will never outperform a wellbred, welltrained working BC, Oh thank goodness - my heavens could there be a more over popularized misunderstood breed than border collies? they have become the dog of choice for people who only enjoy winning at a multitude of dog sports, not the actual training and accomplishment. so many people think they are buying off the shelf when it comes to the poor BCs but I think they have their uses. Anyone attending the national: make sure you get to the herding trial!! Susan Rassas from AZ is bringing several dogs up including what is probably the best OES herding dog the breed has ever seen, in this country at least, her Higgins. He's not a kid anymore, so watch him while you can and I hope someone will be videotaping. will any of the performance stuff be included in the DVD being offered by OESCA? Kristine |
kerry wrote: Mad Dog wrote: [Anyone attending the national: make sure you get to the herding trial!! Susan Rassas from AZ is bringing several dogs up including what is probably the best OES herding dog the breed has ever seen, in this country at least, her Higgins. He's not a kid anymore, so watch him while you can and I hope someone will be videotaping. will any of the performance stuff be included in the DVD being offered by OESCA? I think I read somewhere that, yes, it will be. Last year the performance stuff was on a separate DVD and you could buy it separately
Kristine |
| Very cool that Shaggy did so well - Go Shaggy! Very cute that he licked the break away sheep!
Fitz is going to have his first experience with sheep next Tuesday, I'm pretty excited/nervous. So it's good to hear that you had fun with it! I hope Fitz does as well as Shaggy, though I strongly suspect that to Fitz the sheep will be horrible scary monsters and he'll probably run for the hills, my brave boy. Quote: The best we've done so far is two (2) OES who have excellent level titles.
What are the AKC herding trial levels? If I understand it correctly, the CKC herding trial levels are: Herding Tested, Herding Started, Herding Intermediate, Herding Advanced and then Stock Dog. http://www.acdcc.ca/2007/pdf/CKCherdRules.pdf And Wow - from what I've read, there is a lot more to herding than I thought, and those trials are intense - it's way more complex than I anticipated; actually - it sounds frighteningly like w*rk ...
Fitz's mom is Herding Tested, very close to Herding Started. Apparently she's turning out to be a pretty darned impressive herder. Fitz has his mom's personality/intensity, so maybe he'll do alright too - fingers crossed. I hope someone videos Higgins! |
Mad Dog wrote: kerry wrote: ALso OES are drovers not likely to fetch until taught. I tried four instructors before I found one that understood how upright dogs herd versus border collies etc. I agree with Marilyn that expense may have something to do with it - but I also think the lack of good upright herding instructors is a big factor. you can't train an OES to be a border collie no matter how hard you try. My instructor is 2 hours from my home and I only get to go once or twice a month which also slows down progress. Absolutely. And it may be a numbers game, but the bottom line is we have obedience trial champions and an agility trial champion but not a single dog who has ever really been in the running for a herding championship. The best we've done so far is two (2) OES who have excellent level titles. Embarrassing. Though, in fairness, the AKC program really is not designed to the strengths of even an exceptional OES, so there is that as well. An OES breeder out west who also has border collies and is a herding judge once estimated (I hope I'm not misquoting here ) that about 2/3 of OES have retained the original instinct (that doesn't mean they have natural TALENT, just that they have the basic instinct - which is all most of us test for, if at all - and enjoy chasing sheep around ), and that this is remarkable considering 99+ % of breeders don't remotely select for it (oh, we may test our dogs, but when push comes to shove that's not how we make our breeding decisions). I sold a puppy to someone with a working sheep farm with the caveat: "well, his mom tested well (actually, she was fun to work with and had a lot more eye than I've ever seen in an OES), and his great aunt is as high drive as they come (translation: I hope she was herding and not just chasing sheep to her heart's content), but who the heck knows?" I notice he is out there pulling sleds and dogfood and lord knows what, anything but HERDING. Hm....DAWN????? We will get to it!!! It is all the other half of the cobreeder duo's fault you know.....I remember it when he was 6 months old as going something like this: "oh, he is so nice, please tell me you'll show him??" And I caved and said yes. LOLThen of course it hasn't helped that grandaughter Breanna's pony now lives in the training ring, the ring's fence all needs to be redone on 1/3 of it, the holding pen is totally destroyed...... I do think they can make nice allround farm dogs, not really specialists in anything, and that this is closer to the breed's original intent. Lord knows they will never outperform a wellbred, welltrained working BC, but I think they have their uses. Anyone attending the national: make sure you get to the herding trial!! Susan Rassas from AZ is bringing several dogs up including what is probably the best OES herding dog the breed has ever seen, in this country at least, her Higgins. He's not a kid anymore, so watch him while you can and I hope someone will be videotaping. Kristine |
| [quote="got sheep"]We will get to it!!! It is all the other half of the cobreeder duo's fault you know.....I remember it when he was 6 months old as going something like this: "oh, he is so nice, please tell me you'll show him??" And I caved and said yes. LOLThen of course it hasn't helped that grandaughter Breanna's pony now lives in the training ring, the ring's fence all needs to be redone on 1/3 of it, the holding pen is totally destroyed...... I'm just giving you a hard time. I'm proud of everything the two of you do together. And I should talk - I bred for agility and it took me two years to get Mace into an adult class, and Che's still on a waiting list!!! I took him to obedience class last night and although I didn't get to work with him much because I was helping someone get ready for rally at the national, he blew me away with his wonderful immitation of "the utmost in willingness" (I'll believe it on a sustained level when I see it ) But for now, and after working with his (meow!) "what's in it for me?" sisters... 
Oh, and you could have avoided showing in breed. I told co-breeder you were getting the dog no matter what and she agreed - we both knew beyond a shadow of a doubt you're too great a home to pass up. You could have pretty much have written your own contract
Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: got sheep wrote: We will get to it!!! It is all the other half of the cobreeder duo's fault you know.....I remember it when he was 6 months old as going something like this: "oh, he is so nice, please tell me you'll show him??" And I caved and said yes. LOLThen of course it hasn't helped that grandaughter Breanna's pony now lives in the training ring, the ring's fence all needs to be redone on 1/3 of it, the holding pen is totally destroyed...... I'm just giving you a hard time. I'm proud of everything the two of you do together. And I should talk - I bred for agility and it took me two years to get Mace into an adult class, and Che's still on a waiting list!!! I took him to obedience class last night and although I didn't get to work with him much because I was helping someone get ready for rally at the national, he blew me away with his wonderful immitation of "the utmost in willingness" (I'll believe it on a sustained level when I see it ) But for now, and after working with his (meow!) "what's in it for me?" sisters... Oh, and you could have avoided showing in breed. I told co-breeder you were getting the dog no matter what and she agreed - we both knew beyond a shadow of a doubt you're too great a home to pass up. You could have pretty much have written your own contract Kristine Sure, now you tell me....LOL
Actually showing wasn't in our contract, that's why I laugh now that I caved later on.... silly me. But, I never would trade all the fun I have had at shows and the fun people LeAnne and I have met. It has been so worth it! When I think of all the super people and new experiences I have had because of Chewie, it is amazing.
Don't worry, I was keeping him in full coat just in case anyway, right?? And, off we go to the park to do backpacking........ LOL - I just couldn't resist! |
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