Arthur is growling.
Thanks!!! |
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| Unfortunately there are no true working lineage OES, though we've had our share of poorly bred ones with inherited bad temperaments. That said the fact that your boy showed none of this before doesn't suggest he falls into that category.
It's hard to say without seeing him if what he's doing is testing his limits, somewhat normal depending on the dog's basic temperament with repeated changes of circumstances - one of them being not good - or it's fear based. At least he gives warning. That's a GOOD thing. Of course it's unacceptable to growl at humans, but still better than the alternative: bite without warning. Neither is typical of rescue dogs. The majority have not been abused, the breed is pretty adaptable, and the foster dogs I've had had often come with a lack of socialization and training leaving them a bit timid or unsure of themselves, but still fundamentally sweet. So neither goats nor rescue explain the situation, but being left to his own devices for some time may certainly have had an impact. He was pretty much his own boss, and now he's not. It's hard to say how much that can play into his present behavior. I'd seek professional help with the dog to get an educated read of what's going on. "Diagnosing" something like this without being there is a little scary because how you handle it depends on what's going on. It may be something very basic that can be dealt with fairly simply. Fingers crossed. It's encouraging that he otherwise is receiving such a good report 
Kristine |
| Hey Everyone,
Here's the scoop. It has only happened 3 times. The first a while ago, I can't remember exactly when......about 2 weeks ago maybe. I was trying to get him into the dog kennel in the back yard because there was so much going on outside in the neighborhood they were leaving the yard and him and Buddy needed some outside play time. Buddy went into the kennel no problem but as soon as Arthur realized I was going to put him in there he sat down and growled at me, no teeth showing. I asumed he was really scared because of what happened to him and put him in the house. The second time was last night. My mom and I were outside putting brake pads on her car and it was starting to get dark. Knowing I couldn't keep a close eye on him and it was getting dark I wanted to put him in the house. I started calling him and he would not come, he sat down and would not move. I then started calling him in a deeper voice letting him know he needed to get in the house. He still did not move. Then I walked over to him and was going to grab his collar to bring him in the house and he started growing at me, showing his teeth and ears pinned back. My mom got up and tried to get him to come also and he did the same to her. Finally I ran in and grabbed his leash my mom grabbed the back of his collar so he couldnt bite and I clipped the leash on. After I got further away from he he came right away and I put him in the house no problem. He growled and showed his teeth the entire time before I put the leash on him though. The thrid time was today. My neighbor had a huge turtle in her yard trying to make it;s way to the pond. I didn't want it to get hit by a car or someone to take it home so I picked it up to bring it to the pond which is right down the road. All the kids and another Mom along with Arthur came with. Arthur did not have his leash on, it was kind of a quick thing and I wanted to get a hold of his collar so he would not get hit by a car. He again growled and pinned his ears back. Tonight I did not hesitate and just grabbed his collar because of the road. He did not bite me and stopped growling the second I grabbed his collar and walked him away. When it happens he gets this wierd look in his eyes, like he is not himself. It does scare me, I don't want to get bit and I don't want him to bite. I am sure he knows it scares me. Stephen has said this has never happened before with him so something must have happened when he was with his sister to bring this out in him. I'm not sure if she hit him and he now has some sort of fear of women. I do know he does this only when you are trying to get him to do something he really does NOT want to do. I think that Stephen is for sure going to have to get a bahaviorlist or a trainer to help him get through this but what can I do now to avoid this?? When he does this it is during things he must do, like go in the house. Any advice would be wonderful. Thanks so much, Christina  |
| Hi Christine, it is a hard one as you don't know exactly what Arthur went through previously. Slow road and yes when stephen gets arthur back he may need to consult a behaviourist to help sort out Arthurs past and work through what is happening.
How is Arthur and the food department? I would not force him, take it slowly and use a treat to get him to do what you want him to do. Arthur sounds like he needs confidence again he has had an ordeal and slowly but surely he needs to build back trust and confidence again. To not get bitten I would try in a calm voice and a treat in hand to calmly ask arthur what you want him to do. Hold the treat so he can smell it then when he starts to follow you reward him and when he goes where you want him to go, like outside or inside, reward him again followed by gentle calm voice praise when he has done what you want him to do. He has had such a bad experience previously so as they say, one step forward and a few steps back till trust & confidence is gained again. Have you also had him vetted? That would be one of the first things also to make sure he is not suffering from anything that might be affecting how he is acting now. I hope it is something that can be fixed with love and TLC and Arthur gaining trust in the human race again. |
| Grabbing a collar is a pretty common trigger for making dogs mad. They don't like it. Even gentle dogs don't like it. And for a neglected dog that does not know you very well, I can easily see how that could be a problem and he would want to tell you to back off. I would try and only guide him with a leash and see if you continue to have these sorts of issues. For my gentle Maggie, I have a very short leash handle I use so that I can guide her without having to directly go for her collar. It just works alot better for both of us.
Good luck with Arthur. With time and understanding, I am sure he will grow to appreciate having a gentle leader rather than being left to his own devices. |
| To give you the ability to control him when necessary, I would certainly have a leash on this boy 24/7. I wouldn't be out of the house without him on a leash, and I wouldn't let strangers around him until you have this sorted out and they are familiar with the rules (NO HUGGING, maybe no petting).
I am familiar with that staring not-himself look. 
Someday you may find that he never progresses to the bite, but for now I would take it as the warning that it sounds like: "I'm going to bite if you do not stop." |
| Tonight it happened again only this time with little warning. He did try and get me, luckily he only nipped my finger and hardly got me. This time it happened in the house so it is escalating and doing so fast.
I had no idea about grabbing the collar. I have never had any issues with doing that nor heard of anyone having issues with it. It is ovbiously a trigger for him. I am going to try and put a short leash on him so I have something to grab if I need to and keep him leashed outside. He must not trust me or know I am not going to hurt him. I have tried calling him in a calm voice which is what I always start out with but have not tried a treat with it. I am deffinatly going to try that and see how that goes. I know I am not suppose to let him know I am scared but it does scare me when he gets that look in his eyes. It is so strange because he really is a very sweet boy who loves everyone. I feel bad for him and feel horrible that I can't somehow tell him everything is ok. Stephen is working on getting a vet appointment set up for him. Thank you all for the advice. It really helps a lot and makes me feel a little better. |
| Jeeesh, I'm so sorry and sad this is happening.
I'd leave a regular 6 foot leash so you don't have to get right up to him to get it. Has he had all of his shots including rabies? |
| Just my opinion... I am not a professional dog trainer.
I'm afraid you are very close to a bite. He isn't liking that he's being forced to do something so don't force him to do anything. Keep fabulous treats in your pocket or a bait bag/treat pouch and bribe him to accomplish what needs to be done. I did this with my OES-mix... the same thing is accomplished but both parties are happy about it. I'd also get a behaviorist in... now... especially if there are any children in the house. You need a professional who has experience with this type of behavior. It won't end pretty if he bites someone... the dog may loose his life and someone will be left traumatized by the whole situation. If it were me, I'd check into that bite/quarantine situation mentioned. I have serious concerns that this will escalate if you don't find non-confrontational workarounds for him and have a professional to assist you on-site. PLEASE get Arthur vetted if he still hasn't seen a vet. Whenever a new dog is brought in, either adult or puppy, we need to have them vetted immediately... if for nothing else than to verify good health. |
| Stephen is looking into weather or not he did bite someone. He was never told anything about it if it did happen. If it did happen I do not want him to bite again because I know they will put him down and he does not deserve that. The behaviour he is showing now he never showed before all of this. He is ovbiously tramatized and needs help getting through it and trusting again.
I considered putting a leash on him at all times here in the house and outside but if I did that Willow I know will pull on it at all times. She can be a real terror. I do not want him to have to go through that. I think it would bring him a lot of stress. I am going to keep him on a leash outside though. Yesterday I gave him a treat anytime I wanted him to do anything and it worked wonderfully. He had no issues and always came right away. I am going to continue to do that. It is hard to say weather or not it is working because he only does it when he does not want to do something, but as long as that does work for now I am going to do it. Stephen and I talked a lot yesterday and are going to have a long talk tonight as to what is the best thing to do right now. Either of us want to see anyone get bit or anying happen to Arthur. He needs help and I am probably not the one to do it. I have kids and a puppy here. I have never had to deal with anything like this so I would not or do not know where to begin as to how to help him. Stephen talked with someone yesterday about it and she said it could be that I am a woman. I think he now has a fear of women, a distrust of women. That also would not make me the one to help him through all this. Like I said we are going to talk tonight and figure something out to get him the help he needs. Thank you sooooooooooooo much for all the advice. We will let you know what happens. |
Ron wrote: Jeeesh, I'm so sorry and sad this is happening.
I'd leave a regular 6 foot leash so you don't have to get right up to him to get it. Has he had all of his shots including rabies? He is up to date on all of his shots. It makes me sad also. None of this is his fault and we all only want what is best for him. |
Quote: He needs help and I am probably not the one to do it. I have kids and a puppy here. I have never had to deal with anything like this so I would not or do not know where to begin as to how to help him.
It may be that the collar thing is all that sets him off but it's impossible for us to tell by just words. IF you don't think you can handle him, at least talk with rescue to see if this might be an option for him. There is a very good OES rescue in Minnesota that might be able to help. http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/MN177.html We MADE it work but I respected my OES-mix's limits. I didn't push her beyond what I thought she could handle. My vet said he had never seen such an alpha female. But I could bribe her to do almost anything except roll over on her back. My son had been bitten twice by her... once on the thumb when he was about 10 and again about 10 years later. Again on the thumb.  The second time he was teasing her and I told him she was going to bite him. She gave him a quick nip and told him to knock it off... which he did. It's sometimes easier to train the dog than it is the kid. But because of this, we were very careful who she was allowed to be around. We didn't want her to loose her life because of a bite. |
| Nancy with OES Rescue in MN is wonderful. She would be a good person to contact for help.
I am willing to help too - we have all the other dogs, but no puppies and no kids at home. My dogs are used to foster bassets coming into our home on a regular basis. (I am a board member for a regional basset rescue) And I don't have one here at the moment! Also a dog training experienced husband for the guy influence.
Feel free to PM me with any questions. |
| My first oes, used to have a cheap soft collar attached to her own collar. It didnt drag the floor it was only small but it meant you could control her without actually grabbing her collar...just a thought...hope you get sorted. poor love. |
6Girls wrote: Quote: He needs help and I am probably not the one to do it. I have kids and a puppy here. I have never had to deal with anything like this so I would not or do not know where to begin as to how to help him. It may be that the collar thing is all that sets him off but it's impossible for us to tell by just words. IF you don't think you can handle him, at least talk with rescue to see if this might be an option for him. There is a very good OES rescue in Minnesota that might be able to help. http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/MN177.html We MADE it work but I respected my OES-mix's limits. I didn't push her beyond what I thought she could handle. My vet said he had never seen such an alpha female. But I could bribe her to do almost anything except roll over on her back. My son had been bitten twice by her... once on the thumb when he was about 10 and again about 10 years later. Again on the thumb. The second time he was teasing her and I told him she was going to bite him. She gave him a quick nip and told him to knock it off... which he did. It's sometimes easier to train the dog than it is the kid. But because of this, we were very careful who she was allowed to be around. We didn't want her to loose her life because of a bite.I'm not sure if we can MAKE it work here as I do have the kids and a puppy. If it were just me, I would have no problems at all but I have to worry about everyone else too in addition to what is best for Arhtur  . I have come to love Arhtur and want what is best for him. I don't want him to have to go through all that comes with biting someone. My house is CRAZY!!!! With the kids, cats, dogs, and everything else it deffinatly is not a calm, quiet place where you can spend large amounts of time training without interuptions.
Stephen and I are going to talk tonight and we will update you with what is going on. Thank you all for the support and advice, it really means a lot. |
| Talk it over with Stephen tonight and see if Nancy or Dawn might be the solution you're hoping for. It's got to be the right match for both family and dog or no one will be happy. Rescue may just be the solution everyone is hoping for...
Good luck to you! |
| Hello All,
I wanted to update everyone on Arthur and everything that is going on. After a lot of thinking Stephen decided he could not keep Arthur. He can explain his reasons if he wants. It was a very hard decision for him to make. Arthur really does mean the world to him. He then asked if my family and I would adopt him. After taking the night to think about it and then talking it all over with the family we have decided to give him a forever home We are all very happy about it
The only thing that was holding me up was his growling and after doing much research and with the great advice I recived on here I belive it is something we can overcome and get though. I have made some changes and it has not happened since. YAY ARTHUR 
My children are so happy. They love him so much. He has become their Buddy. The dogs all get along better than my kids do  We are happy we can give him the love he deserves.
Tomorrow Arthur and Buddy have a vet appointment. Buddy needs his weight checked.......i'm not sure if my eyes are fooling me because Arthur is so thin or if Buddy really is getting to be on the wider side but I will find out tomorrow:):) He may be going on a sheepie diet. Arthur will be having everything up to date that is not already. I am also going to have him tested for heartworm and lymes since he had so many ticks on him when he came to me. I HOPE everything is all in the clear and he just needs to put on a few pounds I will update you all tomorrow on what the vet says since I know some of you are wondering. I was suppose to collect a poop sample but he somehow does not have to go now that I WANT the poop Maybe in the morning lol
Have a great night everyone, Christina |
| That's fantastic, Christina!
Good luck and keep us posted. Kristine |
| That's excellent news all the way around. Keep us posted on Arthur and I hope that all goes well at the vet tomorrow. |
| What a great update and congrats on adopting Arthur. |
Pepsi's Mommy wrote: What a great update and congrats on adopting Arthur.
Ditto! |
| what a great ending to a story the best to you |
| I wanted to let you all know how the vet went today:)
I had them both tested for heartworm/lymes and a bunch of other stuff......I am not sure what the test was called. Anyway they both came up negative for everything!!!!! YAY!!!!!!!!! I was worried about Arthur being he had so many ticks on him when he came here. Buddy just needed his yearly test.
Arthur had all of his shots he needed to have. They both got the Lymes vac, Arthur needs a booster in a month since he has never had one before. Arthur needs to gain about 10-15 more pounds and he will be the perfect weight for him. He is at 55 now!!!!!!!!!!! Yay he has gained so much since he has been here, he was about 43 when I got him:):):):):) Buddy is 81 pounds and the vet assured me he is exactly where he should be and not FAT It WAS my eyes playing tricks on me lol
I am so happy everything went well for Arthur::):) I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. Have a great day everyone:) Christina |
buddythesheepdogliveshere wrote: I had them both tested for heartworm/lymes and a bunch of other stuff......I am not sure what the test was called. Anyway they both came up negative for everything!!!!! <snip>
I am so happy everything went well for Arthur::):) I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. Have a great day everyone:) Christina
I absolutely understand. Your vet probably used an IDEXX SNAP test. I think my vet typically uses the 3Dx for HW, Lyme and Erlichea screening -- all problematic in your area and mine. Very good news indeed. Kristine  |
| WOO HOO!!!!
Congratulations to you and to ARTHUR! I'm not sure who the lucky one is... maybe both of you! How can they run a test for Lyme Disease on a dog that has had the Lyme vaccination? My understanding was the vaccination made testing impossible. |
| I believe they always show a positive result - but there may be some interpretations? |
| Belle was vaccinated for Lyme's before I got her. So when we suspected Lyme, we had to run a Western Blot test instead of the Snap (which at that point, at least, I was told, would not be able to distingush). The WB test showed both natural AND vaccination exposure (it can distinguish), so we treated.
That was four years ago. I think this is only the second or maybe third year we've used the expanded Snap tests to screen for TBDs when I have my guys HW tested. I specifically asked my vet about Belle's results this year (thinking she'd always come back positive) but was told, no, her test came back negative. The Snap test is not 100% reliable (no test is, when you get right down to it) So even though all of mine came back negative in April, if I had any suspicion of Lyme at this point, we'd run a Western Blot. I.e. The Snap test is a fairly reliable quick screening tool. If in doubt later, you can have a more sophisticated test run, but with a negative Snap and an asymptomatic dog, I don't lose any sleep over it. Kristine |
| Whatever you just called the test...snap. That is what it was. I know nothing of how they determine if they have Lymes or not when they have been vaccinated. Thanks for the information, I feel a whole lot smarter
I know Buddy had been vaccinated before and the test came back negative. I don't even know what the vaccination he got today was, it included 5 of something. I was trying to get the vet to explain it all to me but he was scared of Buddy. lol I am going to read up on here what everything is |
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