Chasing cars is a huge problem...
I'm new to the forum, and have enjoyed lurking for the past few months. I need help with a car chasing problem, that is getting to be out of hand. My boy is Harry, an 8-month neutered male. He is a fantastic dog, great temperament with my 2 young kids. He's doing quite well with basic obedience, knows sit/down/stay/place/heel very well, and is very good off-leash (provided there aren't many distractions~ working on adding that in now.) The problem is with cars. In a nutshell:
Despite all of this, he gets worse and worse with every passing week. Looking back on things, I can't recall that he ever had a bad experience around cars that would have frightened him. We started with socialization in the car and on the streets since we first got him (he came home at age 9 weeks) so I don't think it's a socialization issue. I could try to post up some YouTube videos of his behavior if you think that it would help. I'm looking forward to anyone's thoughts or advice, and am also looking forward to being a part of this community! Thanks! DrTWT |
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I still have that problem with one of mine. No trainers here  our female is pretty good our male, a nut. We actually take them out in the bushs to run, which they like more and they a VERY tired when we get back. I hardly walk our male on a chain mostly because if it is just me I can not walk 3 of mine dogs. So good luck... I wish we had a trainer. |
| Its really probably not herding/prey drive.
If your trainers aren't behaviorists I would seek out a behaviorist. you also can crate in the car and restrict their view of passing cars to restrict that behavior. |
| "It's Me or the Dog" had the OES segment on this weekend - and they dealt with the car barking.
They covered the back windows of the SUV so the dogs couldn't see out. Somehow, they rigged up a balck curtain behind the front seats. The passenger was responsible for immediately closing the curtain the minute either dog barked. After they calmed down, the curtain was opened until they barked again. It worked for them. Of course, with the current price of gas, this is now a much more expensive lesson. |
we use a portable crate with covering for our one dog with seperation anxiety in the car. I think it would work much easier than hanging curtains  |
| Thanks for the tips everyone, much appreciated.
I was using a crate in the back, it was made of cordura nylon and had coverings we could lower over the mesh windows (it's the brown one they have at PetsMart if you've seen it.) This worked for a while (a month or so), but he always remained very excited. In the last month he began to claw at it, and has now ripped holes in it so it really isn't useful anymore. If we used our wire crate, then he would be able to stand up and still see out. I look for some behaviorists around here, that's a great idea. Do you have any thoughts of what the source of this is, if it isn't prey/herding drive? Thanks! |
| it could be two different issues, the barking at cars when outside could have a different cause than the carrying on in the car.
We have one dog we have to medicate for car rides - but he could care less about cars on his walk and one who lunges at passing cars when we walk (fear based) but could care less when in a car themselves. I didn't determine the one dogs actions were fear based until I watched their reaction to cars when we were biking and they were more restricted. usually the interactions needed to help them overcome the issues are more broad based then "no don't bark at cars!" with on eof ours it is a speration anxiety issue - with th eother one it is all around anxiety issues. Its best to work with a behaviroist to uncover the underlying issue and a program of how to best work with it. |
| Hmmm, very interesting. Thanks for the insight.
Being new here, I'm not sure if it's OK to ask for referrals or recommendations. So, under the guise of ignorance, if anyone might recommend a good behaviorist in the metro Boston / South Shore area, I'd be much obliged. I'm not that connected to the canine community, and my only resource for finding someone is blind net surfing. So, any help would be greatly appreciated. |
| you should start with the listings - IAABC behaviorists can be found on one referral page. then I would email or call and see if you get a good feel for the person and their approach.
I was told by someone (a behaviorist) I trust in a nother state to find one this way and I am happy about my results. the best advice though - its your dog, if they tell you to do something or try something that really feels wrong to you - don't and find someone else. |
| Thanks again! You're on a roll here with the helpful advice.
I checked out the IAABC web page, but it's under construction. 
I'll keep sniffing around. Thanks! |
| Perhaps you could contact Grannie Annie Raker. She's listed on our OES Rescue Contacts page under "New England Old English Sheepdog Rescue"
She knows everything there is to know about sheepdog people in the area, and is usually very happy to share anything that might prevent another OES needing to be rehomed! 
I know I met a sheepdog trainer (Karen?) who was running the CGC certification at the picnic in Western Mass this past weekend. |
| If you use the wire crate...cover it up with some towels or sheets. |
wendy58 wrote: If you use the wire crate...cover it up with some towels or sheets. Absolutely |
Quote: We actually take them out in the bushs to run, which they like more and they a VERY tired when we get back.
This is a part of your problem. This guy needs to run until his tail falls off...ooops, I guess it already has. OK, until is tongue hits the pavement. Then the spring in his brain that is wound so very tight is loosened and you can begin training. I suspect you'll get beyond the 10 minutes when this happens. Make sure you are not transmitting your anxiety and frustration...and anger to him as he'll throw it back to you many times more. I've had dogs like this.......and one was perfect until the "knacker" came by, the dead animal hauler. Then Sam was a holy terror. Fortunately the engine noise was such I could prepare myself (which of course contributed to Sam's balistic behavior) but also kept me from being dragged down the road. Keep at it, by all means away from the road until he is reliable and understands YOU are in charge. Good luck. |
| Thanks for all the tips everyone, very helpful.
I do try to train him after exercising. I have taken him up for some desensitization at the roadside after his morning run (about an hour through the woods), but often he has so much adrenaline pumping through his system after the run it seems to exacerbate the car problem. Maybe I should try to let him settle at home after running and then take him out again, but that gets to be difficult from a time perspective. I'll take some video of him in the next few days and put it up on the web; maybe after seeing him in action you might have some ideas as to the source of / solution to this problem. Thanks! |
| You might try working a little farther away from the traffic. Maybe start at a distance he's able to handle better... one where you can get and keep his attention. Then play a game he's fond of... or simply walk and reward for calm behavior... or the both of you sit so he can calmly observe the traffic. Gradually try to get him closer to the traffic but in small degrees... if he starts to respond negatively, back him off to an acceptable distance again. When he's again calm for a short time, reward him for his calm behavior. You might also try to teach him the word "settle".
But I'm not a professional trainer... |
6Girls wrote: You might try working a little farther away from the traffic. Maybe start at a distance he's able to handle better... one where you can get and keep his attention. Then play a game he's fond of... or simply walk and reward for calm behavior... or the both of you sit so he can calmly observe the traffic. Gradually try to get him closer to the traffic but in small degrees... if he starts to respond negatively, back him off to an acceptable distance again. When he's again calm for a short time, reward him for his calm behavior. You might also try to teach him the word "settle".
But I'm not a professional trainer... definitely sounds like all the advise I ever get from trainers/behaviorists:) The goal is to keep him sub threshold. |
| Emma is more excitable than Darby. She'd get bouncy if we got near traffic so I'd take her down to the end of the road every so often and have her sit for just a short time. She eventually got used to the noise and motion. I don't think it needs to be done for real long periods of time... vary the sessions and try to end on a happy note.
Meesha, my Schip-mix, is more reactive to people so we used to take her to a busy grocery store... we'd sit in the parking lot and let her watch people coming and going. She didn't feel as pressured and got to observe at what she felt was a safe distance. |
6Girls wrote: Emma is more excitable than Darby. She'd get bouncy if we got near traffic so I'd take her down to the end of the road every so often and have her sit for just a short time. She eventually got used to the noise and motion. I don't think it needs to be done for real long periods of time... vary the sessions and try to end on a happy note.
Meesha, my Schip-mix, is more reactive to people so we used to take her to a busy grocery store... we'd sit in the parking lot and let her watch people coming and going. She didn't feel as pressured and got to observe at what she felt was a safe distance. Actually you want to do it in short bursts. Always want it to be a successful session without them going over threshold. feeding them when they notice the traffic - but not when they get a chance to react to it helps as well. when they look at the car, click or call them back to look at you and treat them. it works - now if I could get a chance to practice myself.....  |
Ron wrote: I know I met a sheepdog trainer (Karen?) who was running the CGC certification at the picnic in Western Mass this past weekend. I just reread this. While the picnic was in western Mass, she is located in Maine. |
| Thanks to everyone for their help.
Click here to watch a YouTube video of the loading up sequence. He's eager to get in the car, since he knows it usually means we're going for a run. He's fine for a moment, but then focuses on the door and he starts to lose it. His agitation increases as the door closes, and then continues once we're on our way. I think the whole issue with him in the car is a by-product of his problem with chasing cars, since the car-chasing started first and seemed to naturally lead into the riding-in-the-car issues. I'll post a video of him while we're near a street, and I'll try to crate him in the back of the car too. All of your suggestions are greatly appreciated! |
It sounds like you might need to set smaller goals. Just wondering if you shouldn't even be leaving the drive until he's able to to be calm. 
Your first goal might be to have him remain calm with the door open. Load him in the car, reward him for his calm behavior, then unload him. Maybe repeat it a few times a day until he's consistent with being calm. Then expand it to the same thing but closing the door for a few seconds. When he can be calm with the door closed, the next step would be for you to get behind the wheel and just sit for a bit, then take him back out and reward the good behavior. Then start the car... next back out of the driveway, then pull back in... then maybe just around the block. One problem with this approach is that the neighbors might think your crazy 
As soon as the unacceptable behavior starts, give him a firm "Uh-Uh!", then take him back into the house and ignore him... you turn your back on him and don't talk, don't pet and don't make any eye contact with him. Maybe he'd get the idea that "if you bark, ALL the fun ends". If you remain calm, good thing happen. Just one idea... by the way, he's adorable!!
One more thing... if you're having problems snapping him out of his fixation on the door, you might try giving a penny can a good shake to get his attention. This is our modified penny can... a quart paint container with some change in it that's taped closed. http://oesusa.com/PennyCan.jpg It makes nice loud noise to startle them out of it... hopefully. |
| Jaci, that sounds good... I might try the same appraoch with a sheet covered crate:
I might be trying this: Take your airline or wire crate and cover it with a sheet in the house and let Harry get used to it in the house, closed up and covered for a few minutes, then a little longer, etc. I would start with it covered on 3 sides plus top, and then start back at a few minutes with all four sides covered. ... then try in the car, and if it works, start with just a moment in the garage, lengthening it gradually and moving on to trying it with the car in the driveway, and then moving the car from the garage to the driveway. The key is SUCCESS!! You would want your dog to succeed every time, so don't tempt fate by going too long at first. I would treat immediately after each session.... I am undecided if it should be while still in the crate or after coming out. What do you all think? If you think the approach is interesting, when should Harry be treated, in the crate or after he comes out? |
Quote: What do you all think? If you think the approach is interesting, when should Harry be treated, in the crate or after he comes out?
Hmm... I'm not sure really when to give the treat. It seem that if you want him to think of the crate as a good thing, then reward him while he's inside the crate. If my girls are barking I holler "enough!" or "quiet". I do reward for "quiet" and say "good quiet"... it might not be the right way to do it though. Kaytee is a notorious barker... we think it's a 6th sense that replaces her eyesight One thing I found that works INside the house is to take a hold of the scruff of her neck and tell her "quiet". I keep hold of her scruff for 5-10 seconds and then release her. It seems to help her focus on what I'm saying. Note however it will depend on the individual dog... some dogs will not tolerate this handling. |
| OK, again thanks to all for your helpful suggestions.
I'm going to pursue the crate idea with Harry. I'm going to need to buy new crate, since he shredded the soft one, and he's getting to be too big for the wire crate he used as a pup (we foolishly bought one that was too small!) What size of Vari Kennels do you all use for your sheepdogs? I'm assuming a size 500, but I would like to get some ideas before I get one. |
| Hi all,
I've been working with Harry for the past few days. I shot some more video of a typical training session in the back of the car. CLICK HERE TO WATCH I'd love to hear some feedback on this if you don't mind. I like the idea of using a crate~ we'll start that next week. Also, do you think it's a good idea to abandon all car rides until this problem is fixed? |
| I think its a good idea to limit them and make them very short and successful before you go back to the longer ones. |
| I would limit the car rides. Any times that he reverts back to the barking behavior, you have lost ground and undone any progress you have made. You want to look at preventing the behavior from even happening, not being faced with stopping it after it already starts.
I would have a verbal "good" like Jaci does, then treat/reward right away. I think in the crate is the place to reward, because the no barking in the crate is the behavior you are looking for. I'm afraid treating after he comes out is too far removed from the actually behavior (not barking) that you are really wanting to work on. It may seem to him you are rewarding coming out of the crate nicely! I have a student who is working on a similar car behavior, but in her case it is a young adolescent mastiff who is getting protective of her female owner and not letting anyone near the car when they are in it. They are doing the baby steps of progression - just having a person approaching the car when they are sitting still and not moving. |
| Thanks for the responses~ much appreciated.
My concern is that by limiting the car rides now means no more running off leash in the woods (it's too far to walk there), and thus he would be underexcised which may exacerbate the problem. I have a fenced yard were we can play fetch, and training wears him out too, but he really gets a good workout when's he racing through the woods. I fear that I probably have erred already by taking him around while he was all worked up in the back of the car... but he's so much happier (and also more receptive to training) when he's tuckered out a bit. |
| He does have powerful lungs!
I am wondering about a few things I saw in this most recent video. After he goes down and you say "stay", is that another command deserving a reward? I also wonder about repeating the same command multiple times to get him to respond. I think that is a hard one to overcome! I like your persistance, and I wonder if you were able (maybe with the garage closed?) to say "no" and walk away if he starts barking, then return when he is quiet, and so on. Anyone think that might work (or help)? I don't know what to say about taking him for trips in the car during this desensitization(?) training...perhaps in a crate, a full body vest/seatbelt restraint or blinkers/blindfold of some sort in the backseat instad of the wayback? Maybe that would be a different enough environment? |
| It's almost like he's telling you that you're supposed to be doing something... NOW!!!
"HURRY UP AND SHUT THAT DOOR!!" "HURRY UP AND START THE CAR!!"
Quote: I like your persistance, and I wonder if you were able (maybe with the garage closed?) to say "no" and walk away if he starts barking, then return when he is quiet, and so on. Anyone think that might work (or help)?
I agree with this shunning or withholding of one's self as punishment for naughty behavior. If one of my girls was barking at me like that, I'd cross my arms in a huff, quickly turn my back on them and give a firm "Uh-Uh" or "Quiet!"... then wait until they were again quite to turn around. When he's barking at the door, do you tell him to "leave it"? Do you tell him "quiet" when he's barking at the door to let him know it's not acceptable behavior? Obviously I'm not a pro-trainer... just some things I'd try with my hooligans. |
Ron wrote: After he goes down and you say "stay", is that another command deserving a reward? Thanks for pointing that out,I should probably reward him after the initial stay. Sometimes any type of action on my part (giving a treat, verbal praise, etc) works him up even more, so I think I hold back a bit. Ron wrote: I also wonder about repeating the same command multiple times to get him to respond. I think that is a hard one to overcome! As far as the multiple commands go, I let myself slip into that when he's in the back of the car (I tend to get into bad habits when dealing with this problem.) When I shot this particular video, Harry was especially worked up since our neighbor was mowing his lawn just a few yards away, and thus wasn't listening very well. Thanks for the comments Ron, most appreciated. Looking forward to anyone else's ideas about continuing with rides now in the manner that you suggested. 6girls wrote: When he's barking at the door, do you tell him to "leave it"?
Do you tell him "quiet" when he's barking at the door to let him know it's not acceptable behavior? Once he gets focused on the door, the game is essentially over. Anything I say at all is met with a very definitive bark. He really gets defiant, and he is certainly talking back to me (reminds me of my kids at times). The best response I've found is to walk away and let him settle on his own. When I've tried to settle him (either by ordering a sit or a down or a focus-- focus meaning "look at me") at the door, it just doesn't work. I've continued it out for over 5 minutes, but by that time it seems that I'm reinforcing the fact that he doesn't have to listen to me. I just can't break through to him once gets turned on. I actually haven't tried the shunning on this behavior. We used that pretty successfully with his puppy nipping, so I'll try that tomorrow. Thanks so much! |
| i have to admit I haven't watched the videos, but from what I am reading you probably have an anxioous dog. check out somof the Control Unleashed info available on the web and the book if you can - very good for getting anxious dogs to relax. and Leslie McDeviTT (THE AUTHOR) would definitly tell you to slow down and take baby steps. the rewards are worth it. |
| The funny thing is that he's only anxious around the cars, otherwise he's a mellow little guy.
Thanks for the referral to Control Unleashed~ I looked over the website and it looks like it might help. Thanks! |
| I am not very experienced but my pup is 10 months old and gets stressed around traffic too.
As for travelling in the car, I would take him out in it (crated and from the second day he was home) every day and every time he barked I would give a loud firm "NO!" if there was more than 1 second of silence I would immediately praise in a calm soothing voice, stopping when he barked again and reverting back to the firm "NO!". So at first it was contant noise, either from me or him. I would drive for about an hour at a time and within a week his barking was much less frequent. He really got the message that being quiet got him verbal praise. 3 weeks into it he settled down completely and Ive not heard him bark in the car since. Now he is bigger he prefers to ride on the back seat with a harness attached to the seatbelt. He watches the world go by while leaning against the back of the seat or just lying down. Maybe your boy would feel safer with a harness on? We also had your problem with walking near traffic, he is still nervous and we are working on the same things as you. |
| My sheepies have never barked in the car but my GSD did, loud and long, then my ex dil who is a vet tech told me just ignore her for as long as it takes bcause every time you speak or yell at her your giving her the attenion she wants, well I did and after the first day he stopped barking my ears were ringing but it was worth it |
| I'm not behaviorist, but after watching the videos it seems to me that he is clearly uncomfortable with the door being closed. I was really bothered with the video where you had him get in the car and made him sit, down, sit down with no rewards and no up tone of your voice. You know he's going to explode when you close the door, why build up his tension? If he were my dog, I would spend hours getting him in the car, giving him a cookie and then getting him out then after lots of sessions like that get him in the car and close the door and wait until he settles and reward that behavior and then move on to starting the engine and wait until he settles and reward again. As I said I am no behaviorist, but he seems clearly to have fears. You need to tone down the fearfulness with stuff he knows like sit or down and reward that. I would do the same with cars on the road. Introduce him slowly to one car passing by and when he starts to explode, tell him sit and reward, reward, reward with a very up voice. I would never take him to an overpass or something that overwhelms his fear. |
| ^^^ Actually I kinda thought the same thing here, it seemed to be building the tension. Do you have a handle on the inside of the back door? I'm thinking I would get in the back with him and eventually shut the door staying inside with him and giving him lots of treats. He needs to know he's doing really good when he's inside there, lots of verbal praise is needed, just for him sitting down in there with the door open. You will feel like a complete moron but it will be worth it |
| You might also try loading him from a side door instead of the back.
I know you've got the divider so he stays in back but it might be interesting to see if it makes any difference. Secure him with a leash/harness so he won't be a safety problem to you while driving (once he's settled enough to actually drive). |
Wadepuppy wrote: ...he is clearly uncomfortable with the door being closed. I was really bothered with the video where you had him get in the car and made him sit, down, sit down with no rewards and no up tone of your voice. I completely understand your views here. One problem we have had with him (no so evident in these videos) is that any sort of uptone of voice, etc was met immediately with a bark and more hyper behavior. When he was given a bunch of commands in succession, he was able to focus more and wasn't so verbal. Wadepuppy wrote: I would never take him to an overpass or something that overwhelms his fear.
The situation when we're out on the streets is a bit different that when we're in the back of the car. On the streets, there is no fear, it's all prey drive: "LET ME GO GET THAT CAR NOW!!!!" When we sit by the freeway, he'll watch the cars go by intently, bark a lot, but after 5 minutes or so he'll calm down, forget about the cars, and we just hang out and enjoy each other's company. I do think that this practice is helpful. bgirl.nemesis, That's a good idea to get in with him, I'll give it a shot. 6girls, we've tried that. He just too crazy, and he'll rip up the upholstery and seats and such. A while back we did some training on my cul-de-sac with him in the front seat (try to remove any separation-anxiety) and he seemed to enjoy it. However, we obviously can't adopt that practice for safety reasons, and he's now too out-of-control for that now anyway. Thanks to all for your help! |
Quote: He just too crazy, and he'll rip up the upholstery and seats and such. A while back we did some training on my cul-de-sac with him in the front seat (try to remove any separation-anxiety) and he seemed to enjoy it.
If you reach the point where all training methods have been tried but have failed, ask your vet if a medication would be appropriate. This, in combination with the techniques that have been shared here, may help him to overcome this problem. Clomipramine AND behavioral training allowed a rescue we have to work through severe separation anxiety. This is a dog that had been rehomed too many times, had spent 3 weeks at a Humane Society, was probably over-confined due to her SA, bladder defect and hip dysplasia, then later surrendered to OES rescue. She flew to us at around 10 months of age. When Panda arrived, the biggest challenge was that we couldn't have a closed door between us or she'd get destructive and/or soil the house in a matter of minutes... she also couldn't be crated. We had her on Clomipramine for about 1 year and worked through her problems... both emotional and physical. She's been off this med for close to 2 years now. Medication and training eased her suffering and allowed her to live a happier, more relaxed life. http://oesusa.com/index.145.jpg (back row, left) |
| Vari-Kennel came today~ what a great idea this was! Thanks for your suggestions!
He loads right up into the kennel in the back of the car (he's eager to- can't wait to get in!) I click and treat the load up, then click and treat a down, and then click and treat every 5 or 10 seconds that he remains settled. No problems at all! I then put a sheet over the vent holes so he can't see out. No problems, click and treat. Then I would move the tailgate door back on forth on the hinge, just enough so he could hear it. No problems, no barks, no whining. That's as far as I've taken it, and probably won't do much beyond this for a week or so. He seems happy in the kennel. Maybe I'll put him in there and go out and sit in the car and have lunch with him so he can really relax in the back. I guess there is one problem with this approach~ my four year-old thinks this is a pretty cool set-up and now wants to ride in the kennel in the way back. He's really into the dog training. After Harry has a turn in the kennel, he wants one too. He (my son) responds well to the clicker and likes his roast beef treats just as much as Harry does. I think Harry is quite amused by this, and gives my son a big slobberly kiss in between their turns in the training session. |
| glad this is working. a word of cautionthough - our Irish setter LOVES to sit in the car in the garage. he goes a little crazy when we actually have to move the car and take him anywhere though. he does do better when the crate is covered. |
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