Too food motivated?
Tucker loves his treats. He really loves them. He will almost always do any trick or behaviour when he knows I have one for him. The problem is that if he thinks I don't have one, he won't do much! I do reinforce him sporadically as opposed to regularly, in the hope that the random reinforcement will be reason enough for him to work, but it isn't usually very effective. He almost always sits, but even as something as simple as "down", which he learned since he was about 3 1/2 months old, he won't always do unless he sees that I have a treat. I want to use treats as rewards, not bribes. Any suggestions??? |
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my trainer/behaviorist pointed out mondya night that i was training mr newfie puppy to look for the treat before he behaved. she said it was being used as a sign like the other hand signals 
Now I have to do all training without a treat in my hand (unless we are luring a new trick) try keeping the treat out of sight. if he doesn't comply - turn around and take a step away and a DEEP BREATHE - then try the command again. I am still working on it. |
| If you clip a treat pouch on the back on of your jeans, the
food will stay of sight... just reach behind to get a treat. http://ahimsadogtraining.com/store/prod ... d=MCH-0024 This way he might not know when a treat is coming. |
6Girls wrote: If you clip a treat pouch on the back on of your jeans, the
food will stay of sight... just reach behind to get a treat. http://ahimsadogtraining.com/store/prod ... d=MCH-0024 This way he might not know when a treat is coming. True...I did want to get one of these so maybe it's worth the $15 at the local store. But so far, even if it's in my pocket, he won't DO it if he can't see it!!  |
| ask for a sit. no sit walk away- my trainer made a point of saying "what's the big deal he didn't sit. he'll survive. one day though his life might depend on his obeying a command when you don't have a treat"
step away take a few deep breathes and try again. Never repeat the command, or the hand signal and don't let him know a treat is part of the deal. believe me it will happen and all come together - it really is one thing you need to be concious of not setting up. as she said they actually begin to think the treat is part of the command, no treat you must not really want me to do it. its not - oh look I won't get a treat so I don't have ot do it. we need to make the treat an after the fact - treat. not a cue. |
Mel & Tucker wrote: True...I did want to get one of these so maybe it's worth the $15 at the local store. But so far, even if it's in my pocket, he won't DO it if he can't see it!!
Well, then I guess he isn't getting a treat then, is he? 
If he knows you'll break down and show him the treat he'll hold out for that. Stick the treats in your pocket (or bait bag), pick the easiest thing the knows - the thing you're the most sure he'll do - make it so gosh darn simple that you're almost sure he can't help but do it and don't back down and show him the treat. I mean, if you have to put "breathe!" on command, do it (OK, maybe not , but how about a three second stand?  ) Then make a big deal when he does it and treat magically (well) appears. Have him do other things at similarly easy levels until he believes that the cookie will (usually, at this stage) be forthcoming even if he can't see it. You'll work more on fading and variable reinforcement rates down the road once you've snapped him out of his "show me the money!" mode.
At least this is the first step in getting it out of sight. At this rate you may have to wean him off a bait bag or your person down the road, but you need something to work with so you can get the process started. He must be smarter than my guys who will generally work on faith that the cookie must be on my person somewhere (don't they have noses?) Belle will work for pocket lint. Sad, but true.
It's been a while since I bought a bait bag so maybe they've gone up in price quite a bit (I should be in the market, Sybil's eaten all of mine), but for $15 I'd want it to come with a clicker, bells and whistles (literally) and a small bottle of brandy for those times when Sybil and I don't see eye to eye... 
I think you can find a bait bag for about half that. Has anybody purchased one lately? Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: He must be smarter than my guys who will generally work on faith that the cookie must be on my person somewhere (don't they have noses?) Belle will work for pocket lint. Sad, but true.
It's been a while since I bought a bait bag so maybe they've gone up in price quite a bit (I should be in the market, Sybil's eaten all of mine), but for $15 I'd want it to come with a clicker, bells and whistles (literally) and a small bottle of brandy for those times when Sybil and I don't see eye to eye... I think you can find a bait bag for about half that. Has anybody purchased one lately? Kristine First: yours behave without a treat because (drum roll please) you didn't train them to cue for the treat. since you have tried to convince everybody that Sybil is smarter than three or four dogs ( ) you can't convince me they don't know a treat is involved - they just were taught the cues properly (I did notice they sat for me without inventorying my hand for the value of the treat as well)
second You know both Jan and I bought treat bags in St Louis and yes the price was $15. If there had been alcohol in it we would have shared |
Quote: It's been a while since I bought a bait bag so maybe they've gone up in price quite a bit (I should be in the market, Sybil's eaten all of mine), but for $15 I'd want it to come with a clicker, bells and whistles (literally) and a small bottle of brandy for those times when Sybil and I don't see eye to eye... Rolling Eyes
Yeah, that one is made by Premier, the Gentle Leader company... it is pricier. You can get much less expensive ones if you look. This one by Premier is the biggest bait bag I've tried and found it good for training multiples. I like this one because of the metal strip- it stays open or quickly closes with a just a bit of pressure. It has plenty of room for carry treats, poo bags, keys, money, etc. so is good for walks too. |
kerry wrote: ask for a sit. no sit walk away- my trainer made a point of saying "what's the big deal he didn't sit. he'll survive. one day though his life might depend on his obeying a command when you don't have a treat"
So walk away if he doesn't do it? But then aren't I reinforcing the frame of mind that the commands are optional? And what do I do when HE walks away instead of doing the command? I don't want to "Tucker!" him to death because I know he'll just tune me out. But when I tell him to, for example, lay down and I don't have a treat, he looks at me as if to say, "Then what the hell for?" and he'll just walk away! Usually this happens when there is a distraction, like the cat, or someone outside, or he's thirsty........maybe we just need to take some more classes to strengthen our training relationship??? |
kerry wrote: First: yours behave without a treat because (drum roll please) you didn't train them to cue for the treat. since you have tried to convince everybody that Sybil is smarter than three or four dogs ( ) you can't convince me they don't know a treat is involved - they just were taught the cues properly (I did notice they sat for me without inventorying my hand for the value of the treat as well)I clicker taught Tucker all of his commands, and I've always used different values of food rewards for this becuase I find it extremely effective. Have I done something wrong? |
Mel & Tucker wrote: I clicker taught Tucker all of his commands, and I've always used different values of food rewards for this becuase I find it extremely effective. Have I done something wrong?
Nope. Clicker training - good. Differentiating between reward values - very nice. Only thing you forgot - and contrary to Kerry's drumroll I catch myself doing this too with certain things in agility - is getting the food out of your hand fast enough. Common mistake. We all do it. Especially when you're working on things that require rewarding the dog very quickly and in succession. It's so much easier to have the food in hand that you forget you're doing it, but the hairball does not....
Your methods are great; now you just need to tweak the delivery. Kerry: I didn't realize you and Jan went bait bag shopping! Wolfgang's? They had some wonderful things in that store! But I'm still too cheap to pay $15 for a bait bag Sybil will eat in two weeks or less...
Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Mel & Tucker wrote: I clicker taught Tucker all of his commands, and I've always used different values of food rewards for this becuase I find it extremely effective. Have I done something wrong? Nope. Clicker training - good. Differentiating between reward values - very nice. Only thing you forgot - and contrary to Kerry's drumroll I catch myself doing this too with certain things in agility - is getting the food out of your hand fast enough. Common mistake. We all do it. Especially when you're working on things that require rewarding the dog very quickly and in succession. It's so much easier to have the food in hand that you forget you're doing it, but the hairball does not....Your methods are great; now you just need to tweak the delivery. Kristine Thanks for all the positive feedback! This is the first dog I've ever trained and I've been reading my butt off trying to learn everything I can. I really want Tucker to be well trained. I'm just not sure what you mean by, "get the food reward out of your hand fast enough"?? |
Mel & Tucker wrote: I'm just not sure what you mean by, "get the food reward out of your hand fast enough"??
Sorry, just another way of saying make sure he doesn't see the food when you ask him to do something. I'll often grab ten treats or so and ask for certain behaviors in succession, or repeat and refine (work on) a specific behavior. The nice thing is the treats are right there, so it's fast. The bad thing is the dog can tell whether or not you have treats in hand and (a) can fixate on that hand and/or (b) decide it's not worth doing if no evidence of treat. That's where the bait bag or pocket come in. Eventually, you probably won't have any food on you, but rather leave your treats somewhere and then run over with the dog periodically to give them a treat. Another thing you can do is alternate by rewarding with food or playing with a toy. Tugging is great for this. Belle thinks tugging is for the birds, but most dogs will play if you've cultivate this, and for some a good game of tug, for instance, (interactive is the key when you use play as a reward) is even more rewarding than food. Plus it really gets them up and into the game, whatever game you're playing. Often I'll use food to teach something, but toys when I want them to do whatever I taught them QUICKLY. You have to experiment to see what works for Tucker, but that really is half the fun. Sounds like you're doing a great job with him. Kristine |
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