Sick of positive reinforcement?
The other day I just had had it, so I grabbed him by the scruff and took him to his 'waiting spot' and had him do a down stay. I then gave him his cookie and got out of there. He did not fight me back so I did it again last night when I left and once again he "submitted". I don't know if this will last or if he'll be fighting back if I continue. Is it time to try tough love with him again? To be honest I am sick of him biting my feet and sick of him still worrying about where him and I stand in the pack.... is it time to ditch the positive reinforcement? Any thoughts appreciated! |
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| Awww Heather, I'm so sorry you're going through this with Walter.
I say.... Go with what works. Sometimes people and animals prefer to be and are happier as followers with strong benevolent leaders to guide them. |
| Nothing wrong at all for using the "Off!" command when needed. I use it if any of mine get too riled up. Archie is the most mouthy one in terms of gettng excited and wanting to grab at sleeves, pants legs, etc. Off works very well for him. He's doing it to play and Off! followed by me leaving his presence was extremely effective. Off! now is enough almost always.
Bottom line is that you deserve not to worry about being hurt, tripped, having your clothes ripped, |
| I wonder if in his mind his "reward" was the cookie. "If I jump or bite, I get a cookie." Taking a tough stance, he has to submit to your command, that is taking him to his "spot" and making his lie still before he gets his cookie seems like a better course. He has to show good behavior for more than just 2 seconds, he has to submit before his reward. It's not a matter of stopping bad behavior, he has to submit to your command....you have to lead, not react. |
SheepieBoss wrote: I wonder if in his mind his "reward" was the cookie. "If I jump or bite, I get a cookie." Taking a tough stance, he has to submit to your command, that is taking him to his "spot" and making his lie still before he gets his cookie seems like a better course. He has to show good behavior for more than just 2 seconds, he has to submit before his reward. It's not a matter of stopping bad behavior, he has to submit to your command....you have to lead, not react.
I was thinking the same thing. Dogs do what is rewarding to them. He is getting something out of the jumping up and biting etc. And if he is getting a treat when he stops, then it gives him a reason to start. 
I don't have a lot of time right now, but will respond more thoroughly later on.. |
| You guys, lil' Walty has a separation issue and doesn't want to be left alone. Only the food was more attractive than the anxiety.
I don't have any answers other than to wish Saint Heather luck. |
| Is he on meds? they can help with the training. |
| Before: I would get my things together to leave, Walter would sense that I was about to take off and start to get really anxious/aggressive. He bit my feet, my arms, etc. When I went for the door handle he would attack my hand, I got bit pretty much everyday until I started gating him off from the door.
The past 2-3 years: I get my things together, Walter immediately gets anxious and starts to bite at my feet. I grab a cookie, tell him to go to his spot, and leave him in a down stay for about 2-5 minutes while I get the rest of my things together. I open the door, put the cookie on the floor, tell him to stay and then as I walk out of the house say "ok!" and he can have his cookie. Besides having bruised feet, it worked out well! Now: He is biting my feet very hard, jumping up on me and biting my arm, and following me around with his crazy eyes. He still does not get up from his down/stay command, but getting him there is starting to be the hassle. I dont think it is separation anxiety in that he doesn't want to be alone, after talking to Kata I think it is that he doesn't want his pack to leave and he gets anxious about it! He sees me as an equal in the pack and it stresses him out to have me leave so he gets aggressive. I don't think positive reinforcement is going to get him to realize that I am higher than him in the pack and can leave whenever I want. I am going to try tough love with my monster. He is more mature now (5 tomorrow!) and through NILF/positive reinforcement I think we have created a bond. My only fear is that tough love will turn into another situation where we are fighting/he is challenging me. I'm going to give it a go though, wish me luck!! |
kerry wrote: Is he on meds? they cna help with the training.
He was on clomipramine for about 8 months at the height of his aggression. I don't think they helped, only made him lazy! |
| This is so frustrating. Let me ask some questions and see if we all can figure anything out.
Do you leave a radio and/or TV running while he is gone? Have you left a camcorder going to see what he does while you're away? Does he do this to you regardless of who else is in the house or in the room? Does he do this to anyone else? How does he behave when you come home at the end of the day? How does he behave if you come back in the door right away? Have you tried leaving for a few minutes and then coming right back, then increasing the time of the absence slowly? How does he behave if you go into the bathroom or out into the garage? Does he follow you around the house all day? Does he ever go lie down in another room? Will he come if someone else calls him from you? From another room? Have you tried this when you are leaving? |
| Hi Heather,
Oh boy do you have our sympathies!! We are going through a nasty period too. I wonder if it has something to do with turning 5 (a mid-life crisis????) Oscar and Dudley will be five on 30Jul08. Oscar has decided he is no longer "low man on the totem pole" and is making life miserable for everyone. We have an exchange student living with us and he went after her several times about two weeks ago. He has also been challenging his brother, the cats and Carlos. So far the only one he has not challenged is me, but our trainer assured me it it only a matter of time! We are working on reminding him of his status in life. Its a good thing we really love these guys. PM me if you want to commiserate! Kathie |
Ron wrote: This is so frustrating. Let me ask some questions and see if we all can figure anything out.
Do you leave a radio and/or TV running while he is gone? Have you left a camcorder going to see what he does while you're away? Does he do this to you regardless of who else is in the house or in the room? Does he do this to anyone else? How does he behave when you come home at the end of the day? How does he behave if you come back in the door right away? Have you tried leaving for a few minutes and then coming right back, then increasing the time of the absence slowly? How does he behave if you go into the bathroom or out into the garage? Does he follow you around the house all day? Does he ever go lie down in another room? Will he come if someone else calls him from you? From another room? Have you tried this when you are leaving? 1. No 2. No, but I am certain he spends the day looking out the front door, sleeping on my parents bed, and sleeping in the sunroom with our 2 birds. 3. He doesn't care who is around, although he listens to my dad and will usually stop biting if yelled at by him. 4. He used to do it to my brother and sister when they lived at home, and he has done it to my ex boyfriend and one of my close friends. 5. He is very sweet and friendly when I come home. He comes outside with me, tries to jump on me (but I don't let him), and then comes inside and follows me to my room. 6. If I come back in right away he will usually attack me or follow me around like a maniac. 7. I never wanted to press my luck with this, since I KNOW I'll get attacked! 8. He is fine if I go get the mail, go to the garage for something, bathroom etc. I think the key trigger is that I gather up my things (bag and keys) so he knows I'm actually leaving. 9. He does not follow me around, he is actually very independent. He likes to know where I am and will come say hello to me throughout the day but for the most part he is doin his own thing! 10. He likes to lie down in front of the door, he is our little guard dog. 11. He will come if anyone calls him, hes not protective of me or attached to me in that way. 12. When I'm leaving he is pretty fixated on me, so if someone calls him over he will ignore them. |
kajochen wrote: Hi Heather,
Oh boy do you have our sympathies!! We are going through a nasty period too. I wonder if it has something to do with turning 5 (a mid-life crisis????) Oscar and Dudley will be five on 30Jul08. Oscar has decided he is no longer "low man on the totem pole" and is making life miserable for everyone. We have an exchange student living with us and he went after her several times about two weeks ago. He has also been challenging his brother, the cats and Carlos. So far the only one he has not challenged is me, but our trainer assured me it it only a matter of time! We are working on reminding him of his status in life. Its a good thing we really love these guys. PM me if you want to commiserate! Kathie It's so funny how similar Oscar and Walter are, they should be the posterpups of responsible breeding!! Keep me updated on what you guys try with Oscar and what works! I'd be interested to see what happens when he challenges you and how you guys handle it. |
| A couple of other thoughts:
Have you tried de-sensitizing Lil Walty to his triggers: ie, keys and bag? It would be worth a try: get out your keys and play with them a bit, making sure that they jingle. Then just continue to watch tv or read or whatever. Ignore Walty no matter what. Repeat often. Play with keys and bag and go out for a few minutes, then come in again. Repeat. The idea is to break him of the notion that the jingling keys and the bag mean you will leave. Right now, it's predictable that you will leave if you have your keys and bag. Make it not predictable. Reward him only if he is quiet. If he goes for your feet or your sleeves, I still say teach "Off!" It doesn't matter if he does feel separation anxiety. You are being attacked, which is different than destructive behavior when you are out. |
| What if you gather other things?
Is it possible he's reacting to you taking things out of the house more than your own leaving? Let's say you gathered up some other objects that ARE NOT YOURS. Trash from around the house, or Some objects from the family room, like the remotes or some coffee table books/mags, or His food and water dishes, or His toys, or His crate Does he do resource guarding of food or treats (bones, rawhides etc.)? |
| Heather,
You and Walter have made great progress. I am afraid that treating him in a different manner will increase his stress, and cause him react to in an unpredictable manner. That is not good...Better the devil you know, right? 
I suspect that he is not confident at all. He is OK when you are around, relaxed etc, but when you are not there he is left to fend for himself, make decisions (like which couch to lie on  and if anything happened out of the ordinary, he would not have you to handle things for him. That makes him stressed and he reacts in a stressful way to get your attention when he knows you are leaving for the day. He is afraid to be alone, so he needs to learn that all will be well when you are gone, and he will be fine, and he does not need to guard the place.
He has gotten into a routine, and we all know how our dogs love thier routines. It makes life predictable and safe as they know what happens next. This is good. What he needs is to drop some of the behaviors that have developed through this routine. In the book "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier she states the following, that I find is simple and easy to follow: Dogs need to know 3 things about thier living environment- Who is in charge? What are the rules? Where do I fit in? Dogs do not want to be in control at all. They have no desire to be in charge. They want to understand how to fit in, and to be able to predict thier day. So he knows that the signs of you leaving means that he will be by himself, and that couses him stress. Maybe you leave in a stressful manner, rushing because you are late, moving quickly to get out before he gets at you...etc. etc. For months after I got her, my Dixie girl used to jump and nip at me, when I got home, or it was mealtime, or when she got excited or frightened. I had bruises up and down my arms, and on my thighs from her. I also was so tempted to strangle her...but she was so fragile mentally that I made a promise not to ever scare her or give her reason to fear me. I was to be her protector, and I wanted her to never have to think twice about whether she could come close to me without fear. So I took the brunt of her reactions for a long time. What I did was raise my arms so she couldn't reach me and turn away from her. I moved very slowly all the time. I needed her to calm down, and by my reacting very slowly it slowed her down. After a long time she started to react less, and when my arms went up, she stopped. I did not reward her, because I did not want to confuse the reward with the action. But then I could finally come in and she would watch me slowly, and I would very gently pat her and give her attention, but only after I put my stuff away. I guess what I am trying to say, is to picture the behavior you want, and think of that behavior when handling Walter. What exactly do you want Walter to do while you are getting ready to leave? Lay nicely on the floor and ignore you? If it takes giving him a Kong filled with frozen sardines to get him to do that, so be it. But by being forceful and reactive back to him, he will only get more stressed. You might see a subdued Walter, but that Walter will be confused and unpredictable.. Because he might look obedient, doesn't mean he has learned a lesson. He will feel that you have changed, and are no longer predictable, and he will be right back on his guard again. |
| Many years ago I had a female that had a mind of her own. I found that sometimes she would obey immediately, and other times I had to repeat the command several times before she'd obey.
It took a longgggggg time for me to realize what the difference was. I had unintentionally trained her wrong, and that was the command she obeyed most often. In her eyes I was giving incomplete commands and when I corrected the error she would immediately obey. If I told her to sit and she didn't, I'd then say, "Keshia, sit." (I paused - then in aggrevation said, "Keshia, sit. NOW!" That one word made the difference in her behavior. She connected it to the commands I gave her. If I didn't say 'NOW', it wasn't a command. At least in her eyes!  She taught me a very good lesson in my early days of training dogs.
Perhaps you've changed just one little word or action, that has caused his behavior to change. Maybe a couple walks with him on a prong collar would help teach him that you are the one in control. Or, lay your things by the back door and alternate sneaking out that way a few times. Keep your keys in your purse so he doesn't hear them rattle. When you return, enter calmly, then love on him and reward him for being a good boy. The calmer we remain - the less excited they get. Yeah, right.
Good luck. |
| Ron- He knows the difference between me gathering up random things and me gathering my things to leave. He's a very observant boy and he couldn't care less what I'm doing throughout the day until I grab my purse or my keys.
Nicole- I don't think he cares about being left alone, most of the time I leave my parents are there with him. He also is extremely independent and will do as he pleases all day. I want him to lay down and stay while I get ready, or really he can do whatever he wants but bite me. If I ignore it or move away he will only stress out about getting to my feet/arms etc. If he is not in his downstay when I reach for the doorknob he will bite my arm. The only way to get him to do a downstay is to give him a treat, but why would I give him a treat if he has already bitten me? And now what do I do when biting me becomes a more attractive option than the treat? And I don't think he wants my attention, he just wants me to stay (which I never do). I felt like the other day when I scruffed him and brought him to his spot he actually relaxed a little bit because he knew what he was supposed to be doing. My thought is that if the promise of nice thigns like treats and praise is not doing the trick perhaps it is time for the pack leader to tell him what to do. |
I think you should just take him with you.  |
| Does he do resource guarding of food or treats (bones, rawhides etc.)? |
Yes he does. Although he's gotten much much better and now only guards his food and rawhides (which he rarely gets). He shares his bones and toys now  |
| hmmmm
Does he attack you if he has his leash on (IE you are taking him for a walk with your bag/keys)? |
Ron wrote: hmmmm
Does he attack you if he has his leash on (IE you are taking him for a walk with your bag/keys)? He does not. If he thinks hes coming for a car ride he is still a maniac, but he does not bite he just gets really excited/anxious. I think desensitizing him to my keys/bag is a really good idea that I didn't really consider before. I'll have to take them out and then stick around for a while. And maybe before I leave I can take him out first or even for a spin around the block. My only concern is that he'll catch on and find another trigger! |
| What would happen if you took him for a quick pee (not even a spin around the block, you don't want to make this a difficult thing) before you left?
Just bring him to his fave bush and then back in the house? I hope we're all getting somewhere. Good luck! |
| I would go with whatever works... |
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