Figuring out adult coat color in puppies less than 8 weeks
Sorry if this topic has been posted before. I have an upcoming litter (yes, we did all health certs incl. hips, eyes, thyroid, auditory of heart - no ultrasound specialist in UT) and am planning on doing full registration on the pups (so I can keep better track of them) before letting them go at 8 or 9 weeks. As coat color doesn't come in until they are older, how do you tell if your pup is bl/white, grey/white, grizzle/white, merle/white or a combo of the above? I don't want to misregister any of them but can't figure out how to predict at such a young age.[/u] |
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| You can make some guesses based on the parents' coat color, but you'll still probably end up wrong on at least some of them.
I bred a grizzle bitch to a gray male and look to have ended up with one grizzle and various shades of gray (they're almost two, mind you, and some are still changing coat). You're right - this has been discussed before and I believe the consensus was registering them as gray and white (some like to be fancy and register them as blue-gray and white) is a pretty safe bet. As many as half of mine are probably technically registered the wrong color, but since color doesn't matter in our breed, as long as it's any shade of the acceptable colors, it really won't matter and the AKC will not hunt you down if one of your gray and white registered puppies grows up to be grizzle. Honest. 
Kristine |
| Thanks! I guess I'm just nervous about getting it right. I wanted to do full registration so I have a little more control over where and how the pups end up. I plan on interviewing and I have a four page contract (lol) with (of course) a return clause in place but I do worry that if anything were to happen my contract wouldn't hold as much power as I hope. And I have always been curious about how black and white pups were registered with their adult coat colors. Sidney is blue grey and white while the stud is blue and white. I have to say, there is a striking difference between the two. Of course, Sid is >2 and the stud is a healthy 10 so I am sure their coats are permenent! |
| If you don't mind, a few words on contracts: Four pages is a lot! You may want to review your contract and see if you can whittle it down a bit to the pertinent pieces or people may feel they need a lawyer to review it (i.e. it may seem a bit overwhelming), even if it is written in English and not legalese. And don't assume they'll understand everything that's in it. Review it with them line by line before either of you sign it. And make sure you don't do so with their puppy-to-be - or any puppy - anywhere in sight or their mind will be elsewhere. Some would sign away their firstborn when under the influence of puppy breath, so it's only fair to let them read it and see if they can live with this when they are not under undue influence
If you have a lot of informational stuff about the breed as part of it, perhaps you can extract that and make that a separate handout? Contracts of that nature are somewhat interesting from a legal point of view with terms of co-ownerships being the more likely to be challenged from what I understand. Pet contracts tend to be simpler. Co-ownerships are more generally used for show prospects, or, in some instances I think some breeders will stay on as co-owner of a dog until they have proof of spay/neuter in hand and then sign the dog fully over to their new owners. Some won't touch co-ownerships at all, as they have had bad experiences with them. It really varies. I think most of us use contracts so we know both parties understand the expectations and obligations on both sides. But ultimately the best way to ensure, for instance, that a dog is returned to you if heaven forbid something goes wrong, is to stay in touch with the people regularly throughout the life of the dog, so make sure your puppies only go to people whom you feel you can develop a good rapport with and who won't resent you bugging them for updates and so on. Most, though, are pretty happy to share pictures and funny stories and to know you care enough to stay involved and give advice and support as needed. The other pertinent parts are usually health and care related and under what circumstances will a dog be replaced or monies refunded etc. Please, whatever you do, if you have something like that in a contract, don't insist the dog be returned to you in order for them to get a refund or another puppy or whatever the terms are if they want to keep the first puppy/dog. I can't think that most/any reputable breeders would do this - to me it's just cruel and I think a way for some breeders to get out of having to make good on their promise, since most/many people are hopelessly attached to their dog by then. It's great that you have all that health testing on the parents. A good thing to do - you may already know this - is prepare a puppy package. For each puppy, in addition to their registration, you include a pedigree - it doesn't have to be an AKC certified one and if you don't have a nice way of printing them there are some online sites that may be useful, let me know - as well as copies of all of the parents' health certificates or other documentation of health testing. Also any copies of health testing already performed on the puppies, as well as their microchip information if you had them chipped. The three things that are possible to test for/check at an early age are preliminary eye checks to look for things like juvenile cataracts, BAER testing (which is great because it need only be done once and can be done at an early age, and now you have the hearing status on the entire litter) and cardiac. Most cardiac checks/clearances are done by osculatation (listening to the heart, preferably be a cardiologist if possible) by the way, not necessarily echos, unless there is a noticable problem or known concern (in breeds with high rates of cardiac problems, I expect the requirements are much more stringent). Not all breeders do all or even any of this, and I'm not going to tell you you're a "bad breeder" if you can't or don't, but I just wanted to mention it since more and more breeders I talk to are finding this useful. I understand the apprehension. I was on the phone with a local breeder last night who has a litter of puppies and she's busy interviewing prospective puppy buyers and making tough decisions and we both agree its what we hate the most about breeeding. Ironically the phone conversation was actually about an applicant we have for a rescue dog. The person is wonderful but so inexperienced, and the dog is not an easy one. We kept having to go back to (1) what's best for the dog and (2) what are our instincts telling us. Some of this "instinct" probably only comes with experience, but I think it never ceases to be a little scary. If your gut ever tells you "no, uh-uh, don't think this will work", go with that. Breeders know they need to be prepared to hold on to a puppy as long as it takes to find the right home, but also that the right home will always come along. Locally, perhaps because so many of our rescue people are also breeders themselves, we use that principle in rescue too, and it takes a lot of the stress out of the placements. Or at least that's the theory unless you have to turn a really nice person down for a dog they really want <sigh> 
Kristine |
| Contracts and interviews are fine, and it sounds like you are trying your best for those pups.....I would also be doing vet references and home visits, and for the out-of-town ones, I would be having someone do it for me. No way would I be sending out a pup to somewhere that hasn't been approved by a vet or viewed with a trusted eye. Geeez...For health reasons I don't even place rescue dogs in a smoking household..How would I know that, unless a non-smoker actually went into the house?
A great breeder once told me that rescue does a better job of screening and placing dogs than most reputable breeders do. Maybe if the breeders did all that rescues do it wold be better for all dogs in the end. And by microchipiing or tatooing the pups they are definintley tracable back to your kennel name. Doesn't matter what color they turn out to be. |
Bosley's mom wrote: A great breeder once told me that rescue does a better job of screening and placing dogs than most reputable breeders do. Maybe if the breeders did all that rescues do it wold be better for all dogs in the end..
Excellent points, Nicole. Although most (good) breeders do home visits and reference checks, and if you aren't directly in the area you'd better have had another breeder's OES or a rescue OES before, and they'd better be willing to vouch for you. Not having had an OES before is also a significant deterent for a breeder, and most rescues as well. And even that is not a guarantee - how many rescues get dogs returned, some times several times? It happens. Honestly, one thing some rescues more generally could learn from good breeders is to be more discriminating in terms of what dogs they deem placable, to make the hard decisions themselves instead of pushing the risk and potential heartache onto new homes - most of whom are ill equipped to deal with the more serious issues dogs anyway - and to take the time to truly get to know the dog before they place them. Fortunately it's relatively rare, but some rescue dogs that have been placed have had to be euthanized for severe aggression. Were the signs not there? Maybe if we (rescue) did a better job of screening the dogs, that could be avoided. But they're dogs, not robots, and nothing is fool proof. So you do your best and that means taking the time to let the dogs settle in and show their true colors before you place them. I know a lot of rescues are really strapped for people resources in this regard, so if any of you experienced OES owners out there want to know what your local rescue group needs more than anything else, it's good foster homes. Truly. With puppies, your best indications are the parents' temperaments. And even then you don't place a rowdy, pushy puppy with a doormat kind of personality puppy buyer and so on, so you have to basically temperament test the prospective new owners as well to see if you can find a good match. I didn't even bother "temperament testing" anybody as far as Sybil was concerned. By five weeks old I knew she was too busy for any sane person and she had to have a working home, so she got one. Mine. Some puppies will be hard to find a good match for, especially in our breed, where there is a dearth of "working" homes. This is a herding breed and too many prospective owners see cute and fluffy and miss that point, to the detriment of the dogs. Then when they're 1-2 years old the breeder either gets the dog back, or rescue gets the dubious honor of trying to civilize them. Which would have been much easier to do in the first place while they were puppies. Some breeders now include a bare minimum of required sessions of training classes in their contracts, amd some include finanical incentives (I'll refund you X amount of dollars in return for successfully completing a puppy class and at least one beginners class) and I wholeheartedly agree. Of course, this is a long way from coat color
Kristine |
| Thanks for all the great advice! I've been trying to simplify my contract. My husband raises pugs so I just modified the contract we use for them. We are planning on microchipping the entire litter. Having a bit of difficulty with finding a site close by for BAER testing (posted in medical section about this). This weekend we might ultrasound to see how many are in the litter (she's at 49 days). Still up in the air b/c our vet is new to ultrasound and its $100 if he's wrong or right...I have to admit, when I first posted, I was apprehensive. Now, I am very happy that I did post due to the great responses. Thanks!!! |
| Glad to hopefully have helped a little.
Widespread use of ultrasound to confirm pregnancy is a bit newer technology I think. When her breeder bred my eldest, they palpated - can only be done by someone who knows what they're doing - and then they x-rayed closer to the would be due date. Some time after that, they came out with the bloodtest. It told you if your bitch was pregnant at an earlier date than an x-ray BUT it might give a false negative on a singleton litter - that happened to a friend of mine. Thankfully the surprise survived 
By the time I bred Mad we had a new repro vet and she does ultrasounds. I don't think she charged quite that much, but maybe she was being nice to me. She, her vet tech and I had fun "finding puppies". She said it's not a real good way to count puppies, too much room for confusion, but a good way to confirm pregnancy. She thought she saw 4-6. The fun part was one of the puppies was wide awake and actually spinning in there !! (In my heart I will always believe this must have been Sybil <snicker>) Then we x-rayed closer to the due date for a count. She thought she saw six. Mad had eight. Surprise!! Even with the advances in technology there's still room for interesting surprises. Good luck with your girl and do keep us posted. Kristine |
We asked our regular vet (we have two - one who lives around the corner, convenient for questions/emergencies and then our backup vet a few more miles away) to palpitate for the litter and he refused. I was definitely frustrated. He said he didn't think it was a reliable check. I believe he just doesn't have enough experience and was afraid to lose face. Thought about x-raying as well - I was a bit concerned that the radiation might either inhibit proper growth or lessen the quality of Sid's colostrum as its done so close to the due date. With my husband's pug, Rowan, we were extremely lucky - we did neither, just kept a list of about 6 local emergency vets since pugs are so tricky and thawed the credit cards *lol* Our little girl had 9 puppies! Luckily we had thoroughly researched and planned. All but one owner *grrrrr* follow their contract and regularly keep in touch and send pictures. We did a spay/neuter incentive as the stud's owner dropped off the face of the planet, along with AKC papers. It was horrible! We turned down 7 studs before deciding between two whom we thought would counter Rowan's faults (great conformation, a little light for markings). Learned a lot from that litter and my mentor who has breed Newfs for decades. Beautiful puppies - two def. pet quality due to markings but the others all are correct both in color and build. Husband loves his breed, and I love mine. They do bring up a lot of questions when seen together. We just explain that while we both wanted breeds who usually exhibit family-friendly temperments and have fun personalities, we couldn't agree on size, coat and laziness factor. (of course, Sid can be much lazier than Rowan.) Sorry about droning on - lack of sleep and researching pedigrees has taken it's toll. Does anyone else think it's a bit crazy what the AKC charges for pedigrees - my goal for this year is to get Sid's pedigree back 15 generations - a bit pricey...$12 a dog just to view on internet, not even with an email or printout.  |
| Your vet probably did you a favor. It's my understanding that if you don't know what you're doing you can end up hurting the puppies. Better left alone in that case. And few regular vets know all that much about repro unless they have a special interest and/or a number of breeder clients. Doesn't mean they can't be great vets. It's just not their specialty.
We x-ray close to the due date (a week or even less before?). And there has never been an issue. Of course, puppies are basically through the sensistive stages of development by then. I do know it worries some people. But then I also know one breeder, name withheld to protect the innocent  - who got it in her head that an ultrasound can cause the bitch to reabsorb. No evidence of that either to the best of my knowledge. If I had to choose between the two, x-rays would worry me more....but I've used both without any apparent issue (i.e. eight huge puppies)
As for pedigrees, you may be a little in luck (though you may also have used this resource already): The OESCA Open Health Registry has a pedigree database - you have to register to use it, but it's not a big deal, and then you also have access to known confirmed CA carriers: www.oescahealthregistry.org Yes, it annoys me too to pay the AKC for research pedigrees, but I've done it while researching a dog and running into a wall. There are some limitations such as little to no pedigree info in their database behind imports, and also that not all of their info is online, so once you go back beyond a certain year, this too is basically a dead end. That's when you resort to old yearbooks and OETs (hey, Mandy - you're the keeper of these things, aren't you?) and foreign publications as well when you can get your hands on them. A request: if you use the database and discover you have pedigree info that the database does not, please submit. You can even submit scanned pedigrees to save on typing, though it does have to be a high quality scan. If in doubt on the scanning option, e-mail the webmaster. I know we've gotten a few that just couldn't be read, which is very frustrating. Kristine |
| My vet is an OES breeder as well. One of her clients breeds pugs. I can't remember the details, but for some reason a young puppy (or was it the whole litter?) ended up basically raised by one or several of her OES for a while. It so affected at least one of the puppies that every time he sees an OES now, he thinks "FAMILY!". He was in Belle's obedience class - great little working dog, holy wow - and the only thing that could cause him to lose focus was when Belle walked in. He had to come running up and jump all over her. It's not an intuitive combination of breeds to live together, but it is hilarious to watch them interact.
Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: That's when you resort to old yearbooks and OETs (hey, Mandy - you're the keeper of these things, aren't you?) and foreign publications as well when you can get your hands on them.
That is correct. We're working on indexing everything so that you can better pinpoint what you're looking for but for the moment, let me know who you are trying to track down and I can see if it's one of the group I've already done. |
Thank you all for your help - I need to get together the names that I am having a hard time moving past. (Not the most organized right now) Can anyone recommend good software - I was thinking about getting breederbase but if there is a better program, I'd be interested.  |
villarose wrote: Thank you all for your help - I need to get together the names that I am having a hard time moving past. (Not the most organized right now) Can anyone recommend good software - I was thinking about getting breederbase but if there is a better program, I'd be interested.
A number of the people I work with use Breedmate - it's very user friendly, good tech support. Australian based company. I started out with a different software and later switched when the tech support and customer service aspects of the software I originally used went down the proverbial toilet. I love it. Probably more than sufficient unless you'd be doing really sophisticated genetic analysis. There are others out there that may be excellent as well. Kristine |
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