choke chain vs/ gentle leader
I am new to this forum. My Christmas present was an OES puppy, Dino; he is currently 4 months and weight 40 lbs. We absolutely adore him. He is my first OES puppy. He loves going on walks and I love showing him off. Here is my question. I use the gentle leader for our walks, but my husband likes the choke chain. I HATE the chain! Is this ok, or will Dino get confused? Thanks, Yessy |
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| Welcome to the forum...Dino is a cutie!!!!1
I am no expert...but if he is walking on the gentle leader, I wouldn't switch. A choke, if not used correctly may do more harm than good. Is Dino in puppy classes??? The trainer would be able to direct you, after watching how Dino walks onlead with the leader. I am sure you will get many suggestions here and alot of support!!!! Good Luck  !!!! |
I would like the answers to this too. Sami does great on the leader and would not change.... Blue on the other hand   I do have a choke collar but to chicken to use it. I am going to try it... one day. |
| Generally speaking, you start with the least aggressive tool and work your way up. If your pup does well with a gentle leader, then I wouldn't bother with a choke or prong collar. However, if your pup needs a firmer tool to ensure his/her and your safety, then you move up the food chain so to speak.
Our first sheepie, Quincy, was literally uncontrollable with anything but the prong collar as a pup. Our first use of it was in a training session with an experienced trainer, and it didn't take long for Quincy to understand the negative consequences of pulling. After that, I rarely had to give a correction with it. I used a pinch collar with Oscar too, as he was a CRAZY pup, but he continued to pull so that it was potentially harmful to keep using it. I ended up switching to a gentle leader harness, and lots and lots of positive reinforcement ( I constantly feed him kibble when he is in the heel position and calmly walking.). He is still a struggle to walk, but we keep working on it. Laurie and Oscar |
| If you want to control him in a non-violent way, use the Gentle Leader. If you want to choke and hurt your puppy, use the choke collar.
Which one do you think HE will enjoy more? |
| to further confuse the issue - trainers and behaviorists are gravitating b to the prong collar because the gentle leader is leading to cervicle injuries. I use the gentle leader, with discretion or a flat collar or halter depending on the circumstances. |
| Thank you everyone for all your answers.. |
Our dog trainer will not allow anyone to use a pinch or choke collar in her class. She said if anyone feels that they need to use it outside of class, she wants them to give her a darn good reason why. 
We have a gentle leader collar. |
| as I saiad - to increase the confusion. one week trainers all like one tool - the next week another. I have used a prong collar and used properly it is wonderful. I have seen it used improperly and wanted to deck the guy - really. |
| I agree with Kerry. Both of my dogs have been over 100 lbs, very active and VERY strong. My trainer went to the prong collar only after exhausting every other possibility, without positive results. |
| Welcome to the forum and congrats to your new friend. I have had dogs all my life and have never used either a choke chain or any other type of aid, the OES can be stubborn but if you show them from the beginning that you are the BOSS then things should be fine, the best advice is that you visit dog training classes with puppy training and you will be fine. |
Bosley's mom wrote: If you want to control him in a non-violent way, use the Gentle Leader. If you want to choke and hurt your puppy, use the choke collar.
Which one do you think HE will enjoy more? wow what an unbiased uninformed opinion. According to research, the tool that does the least physical damage to your dog is the prong collar, which if used correctly can be an effective and fast acting tool. Otherwise the best situation is a trained dog and a flat collar. |
kerry wrote: Bosley's mom wrote: If you want to control him in a non-violent way, use the Gentle Leader. If you want to choke and hurt your puppy, use the choke collar. Which one do you think HE will enjoy more? wow what an unbiased uninformed opinion. According to research, the tool that does the least physical damage to your dog is the prong collar, which if used correctly can be an effective and fast acting tool. Otherwise the best situation is a trained dog and a flat collar. DITTO! DITTO! DITTO! |
| No one is going to agree on this subject. There seem to be strong opinions both ways. Personally, I won't use any collar that is designed to inflict pain or discomfort in order to work.
I use a gentle leader and it's the only thing that works on my current pair of strong-necked dogs. Fitted and used correctly, I don't believe it causes any problem. You don't yank on it to correct. If there have been injuries, they are probably from misuse. Dogs follow their noses and all it does is steer them around by the nose. Once they are used to the nose loop they walk calmer and don't pull against it or lunge like they do with any neck collar. |
| Actually "rfloch" there is someone who agrees (with you) COMPLETELY. Me. Our Bailee, now 9 months young used to pull me (6 ft. 197 lbs) along for the ride whenever we took our walks. We started Obedience Class 6 weeks ago and the trainer is a proponent of the "Gentle Leader." It has been marvelous, Bailee now walks as well as any dog can. With the training "WE" are both receiving he has improved greatly in his reaction to people approaching him to pet him and especially in his interaction with children. Use of a collar on a young dog who pulls can cause serious damage to the trachea. We were advised by our trainer to use a harness for the first 6 months of his life until his neck and shoulders became stong enough and thick enough to withstand the use of a collar. Once we went to the collar, he really got to be a handful, until we switched the Gentle Leader. Proper use of the Gentle Leader, meaning NO Yanking, NO sudden strong jerks or actions like that coupled with Obedience Training is a very successful remedy to a pulling, jumping dog. |
| Dutch and I are GL fans also , I'm 5'2 and 90 lbs and I cannot control her on a choke or prong but on the GL she is a dream to walk. But not all dogs respond to the same type of collar, and walking my big old Dudley (well overr 100 lbs ) worked best with a prong So perhaps it's best to try them all out (once you have learned how to use them properly) and see what works best for your sheepie . |
rfloch wrote: You don't yank on it to correct. If there have been injuries, they are probably from misuse. Dogs follow their noses and all it does is steer them around by the nose.
Or they lunge at another animal/leaf/car etc etc If you have to keep using it it isn't a successful training tool. |
kerry wrote: Bosley's mom wrote: If you want to control him in a non-violent way, use the Gentle Leader. If you want to choke and hurt your puppy, use the choke collar. Which one do you think HE will enjoy more? wow what an unbiased uninformed opinion. You didn't have to be that rude about it. We tried the prong collar on Oliver. It didn't help, in fact it only matted his hair. |
jcc9797 wrote: kerry wrote: Bosley's mom wrote: If you want to control him in a non-violent way, use the Gentle Leader. If you want to choke and hurt your puppy, use the choke collar. Which one do you think HE will enjoy more? wow what an unbiased uninformed opinion. You didn't have to be that rude about it. We tried the prong collar on Oliver. It didn't help, in fact it only matted his hair. Sorry, it t wasn't really aimed at you (as in being rude) BUT other countries have lost the ability to use this very humane and useful tool because people started saying it was mean and hurtful. If you had said what you did today, I would have told you yes it might not work, or maybe your prong was too big or not fitted properly or perhaps it was improperly used. Considering large dogs are often given up because they are unruly, or jump and bite a child etc etc, which is really more humane, training them and making them an acceptable member of society, or only using an "acceptable" tool and chancing they end up being tossed aside, or even worse euthanized? Let me share a story. I have a new neighbor with a very small dog - maybe an italien greyhound? The dog is insane around all other dogs and barks and lunges - totally reactive 100% of the time. I can be walking my dogs a block away and he sets off. Now I see what they are doing, looks to me like 100% positive training - lots of good boy's going on over there when the dog pauses to take a breath in his barking and lunging. Now this goes on as long as my dogs are anywhere in view. One day the owner even told my husband he had to leave the street with his Newf cause he was scaring her poor dog (ouch that didn't go well). Now I agree her dog is scared. I have one that used to react the same way - some of you know her cause now she will still react that way if an untrained dog gets in her face. Occasionally my girl will react when this poor dog is lunging and barking and pulling his owners (dog forbid he was a 100 pound OES). I said I know what they are trying to do with their dog (and have been for the 6 months they have lived on the street) because I tried all those methods. But now when my girl reacts at their crazy little dog (and I do call him that) she gets a sharp correction on her micro prong collar and will stop barking, step into heel and walk past him. Will that work with all dogs- probably not, are we finished training? He!! no!. Is my use of the prong, fair consistent and immediate. Yes. Can my dog walk down a crowded street with other dogs and behave without reacting or annoying people on the street. Yes! We even go to highly charged agility events (where the prong is not allowed) with other reactive dogs and people tell me they have no idea she is reactive without being told. If their dog was the size of one of mine, which do you think would stand a better chance at a long and healthy life? That's humane if you ask me. |
jean wrote: So perhaps it's best to try them all out (once you have learned how to use them properly) and see what works best for your sheepie .
Thanx Jean...I kept trying to figure out how to phrase exactly that thought, without having to wave my cup o' tea around too much first! 
I think its important to remember that these are all tools...and that the goal should be a trained dog who can safely walk on a leash in public. Im not a training expert, but Ive had plenty of opportunity to watch people and their dogs using (and mis-using) various types of collars/leashes etc. An excited, untrained dog in a gentle leader can definitely figure out how to pull...they just spin around and yank backwards Ive also watched big dogs in prong collars just stubborn them out and pull in spite of the prongs (usually because the owners aren't keeping the collar high up under the ears like your supposed to) As well as the dreaded retractable leash-from-hell people, whose dogs just might as well be off lead 
We used a prong with Bert as a training tool, and nowadays,if we are in a high-risk enviroment (like a dense crowd) all I have to do is clip it on (not attached to the lead...that's on a flat collar) and he understands that we are in "working" mode, and momma means business!  |
| [quote="ravenmoonart As well as the dreaded retractable leash-from-hell people, whose dogs just might as well be off lead
[/quote] Do you sometimes just fantacize about finding the person who invented that thing and tangling them up in one?  |
kerry wrote: ravenmoonart As well as the dreaded retractable leash-from-hell people, whose dogs just might as well be off lead [quote="kerry wrote: Do you sometimes just fantacize about finding the person who invented that thing and tangling them up in one?
Actually, I love them for potty breaks My girl has this "I need some space" thing about pooping
The owners who use them is a crowd though?...oh yeah! Although, that often happens to them anyway, and doesn't seem to deter them any  |
| Although I would never use one myself, I understand why some people use prong collars.
There are 2 separate streams to address. One is training, and the use of a collar for training. I myself, do not advocate using punishment in training. A pinch collar is exactly that. It hurts, controls, forces compliance...call it what you want. If it did not do this, then it would not work. Otherwise we would use a choke collar with cotten balls glued onto it, no? Personally, I train my dogs to learn to walk nice at my side without the use of any collar or leash. I think that is the most humane, no?
Then there is the everyday control your dog on walks. Although, again, I would never use one, I understand how someone would if in an emergency they felt that it was nesesary to punish/control , call it what you want, to prevent an injury. For those situations, I use a GL. I also pay a lot of attention to what I am exposing my dogs to, and try to avoid situations where I know they will react negatively, which is usually due to fear. If a child is jumping and screaming, one of my dogs would go nuts if we were too close, so I stay at the distance she can tolerate it. For her sake. (What can I say? She has issues that are not her fault or mine). My male would just ignore it, so a GL or flat or nothing would be fine with him. I think above all, we need to understand what we are communicating to our dogs, and not just use something because it works. A well informed person is much better able to make choices that will result in what they expect. More tea anyone? |
| Apparently I should be serving the tea
But I do have a question and I mean this as a question because I don't think we can ever stop learning - about anything. so here goes - Might not it be better to teach your dog to learn how to handle the fear situations than trying (believe me I know you can't always succed in this) to avoid them? Is it kinder to a dog or even a child to let them cultivate a fear or help them to "suck it up"? I have found the judicial use of a negative reinforcement to be so freeing for my dog - I know it intellectually makes no sense (with our current framework) and I have struggled a long time with this. But she is so much happier and so much more successful, I can't help thinking the good outweighs the (minor) bad. On top of it all I had a canine physical therapist suggest the correct use of the prong may actually release endorphins into the dogs system.
Thoughts? / |
| I never thought I'd say that a prong collar can work wonders but in certain cases it can. When Nelson went through his first obedience class, the instructor would only allow a flat buckle collar or Gentle Leader. He absolutely hated the Gentle Leader. Eventually we quit that and with patience, made the regular collar work just fine.
Sassy, our crazy rescue dog, will try to chase cars and spin like a Tasmanian Devil whenever we go walking. We tried everything and eventually tried a prong collar that was surrendered with another rescue dog. Sassy is a tough dog and as soon as we put the prong collar on, she was a totally different animal. She didn't pull, didn't spin in circles. I honestly don't believe she lets enough tension on the collar to make her feel discomfort. I've really changed my mind about being prong collars being "inhumane". I'd never use a prong collar on Nelson because he doesn't need it. He does well with a slip lead or regular flat collar. Sassy is doing so much better after a short time with the prong collar that I believe we can stop using it altogether. My advice to anyone considering these training tools is to start with the one with the least correction first. Have patience with that and if it doesn't work out, go to the next level. Not every method works for every dog. |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: Sassy, our crazy rescue dog, will try to chase cars and spin like a Tasmanian Devil whenever we go walking. We tried everything and eventually tried a prong collar that was surrendered with another rescue dog. Sassy is a tough dog and as soon as we put the prong collar on, she was a totally different animal. She didn't pull, didn't spin in circles. I honestly don't believe she lets enough tension on the collar to make her feel discomfort. I've really changed my mind about being prong collars being "inhumane".
I went through a process like that too. From absolute horror - they look like a medieval torture instrument  , to, OK, I understand how this works now.
For dogs like Sassy this is probably the most humane method by far. My chiropractic vet abhors the halter type collars because of the damage they can do to the dog's neck/spine. Granted they'll only do that if the dog hits the end of the lead and gets whipped around. But most dogs who need some kind of training collar don't walk nicely on a lead to begin with. I tried a halti or GL once with Mad when she was a youngster at her breeder's suggestion. She was horrible when I first started taking her to trials with me and wanted to meet every dog she saw. It didn't work with her and instead made her pull more. I went back to the oldfashioned method of taking a few steps back in terms of distraction levels and training the dog to walk nicely on any collar But some dogs just plain need powersteering.
You use what works with minimum force. Kristine |
kerry wrote: Might not it be better to teach your dog to learn how to handle the fear situations than trying (believe me I know you can't always succed in this) to avoid them? Absolutely. However, I have learned that I can only communicate effectively with the dog when he/she is below the "freak out" threshold. I believe that close exposure to the frightening situation needs to be minimized, if not eliminated while desensitizing the dog. Otherwise how can the dog learn to feel calm and safe when it has never felt safe? In the cource of any behavior modification program one needs to be aware of what the dog actually experiences, and work with turning that behavior around. My gal suffers with an owner who has limited time time to work on several issues, so I picked my goals with what I can work with, and in the interim I manage the rest while hoping not to make them worse...and certainly not punishing her because of her normal behavior (normal for her, that is)... kerry wrote: I have found the judicial use of a negative reinforcement to be so freeing for my dog - I know it intellectually makes no sense (with our current framework) and I have struggled a long time with this. But she is so much happier and so much more successful, I can't help thinking the good outweighs the (minor) bad.
There are arguments that a collar correction, even self-correcting, is positive punishment. There is something introduced which stops the behavior. I am not sure I understand what you are removing to increase her good behavior. I can see how an already trained dog can understand this more as an inturruption, like I would use a "watch-me" cue. Whatever gets the dog's attention back to you puts you back in control, and I see how a dog can be almost relieved when control is re-established. It is the importance of how that attention is obtained, and what the dog feels about it that I think is often missed. Are you suggesting that your girl reacts because she needs you to control the situation? Kind of like...she cannot help herself, so needs you to do it for her? That I can relate to, immensely! |
kindtodogs wrote: kerry wrote: Might not it be better to teach your dog to learn how to handle the fear situations than trying (believe me I know you can't always succed in this) to avoid them? Absolutely. However, I have learned that I can only communicate effectively with the dog when he/she is below the "freak out" threshold. I believe that close exposure to the frightening situation needs to be minimized, if not eliminated while desensitizing the dog. Otherwise how can the dog learn to feel calm and safe when it has never felt safe? In the cource of any behavior modification program one needs to be aware of what the dog actually experiences, and work with turning that behavior around. My gal suffers with an owner who has limited time time to work on several issues, so I picked my goals with what I can work with, and in the interim I manage the rest while hoping not to make them worse...and certainly not punishing her because of her normal behavior (normal for her, that is)... Very control unleashed! I recognize all the terminology and phrasing, all I can say is I did this for what seemed like forever (maybe a year?) and nothing got better. I went to a focus seminar and she ended up over threshold, the trainer put the micro prong on her with a long line- the next time she did the same thing (when walking near a strange dog) he corrected her once - she did yelp but I think it was out of surprise (I winced) she reacted again (half heartedly this time), one more correction and she walked over to me, walked up to the other dog with the apporopriate appeasement signs and sat next to me. Its liek a huge weight was lifted from both of our shoulders and she is so happy. I think my point is to really think about things and don't be closed to trying all the tools. It has only gotten better since then. |
I like these below. I barely have to use any pressure. Actually I walked Laika with a buckle at lunch and she was wonderful but when it comes to exciting in counters I like having the back up of the harness. It hooks up in the front and just gives a slight tightening like the face halti.
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spacegirl21 wrote: I'm not a big fan of harnesses because I use them for other things like skikjoring and tracking, though each have a different design, of course. But I LOVE that pic, between the background flowers and the wild hair
Kerry - the design sounds like what Kathi uses on Kodi. She swears by them. She told me the brand, but I can't remember what it was. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Kerry - the design sounds like what Kathi uses on Kodi. She swears by them. She told me the brand, but I can't remember what it was. Kristine We tried harness - they really don't seem to train anything though, unless I am missing something. My real goal is well behaved sheepdogs on flat collars- or heeling off lead (not under the illusion of control) Morgan is so very close (better be ready in three weeks ) and Marley really seems to be on her way.
Now Beowulf.... 
Did I mention he is in an agility foundations class? |
| Those harnesses do work, and they are structurally safe on most breeds (unlike the halti/gentle leader). I had mentioned to Cassie that this type of harness may be her best choice to use when biking with Ru. It gives control, but puts no pressure on the head or neck if you needed to stop quickly, and he won't be able to pull the bike and cause a wreck.
However in general use, they are just managing the dog, not teaching the dog anything. Good in a pinch maybe, but not the best choice for long term. After a year on a harness like that, you won't have a dog any better at walking calmly next to you on a regular collar or off lead.  |
| We had Bailee on a harness from age 3 months until 6 weeks ago (now 9 months). He never stopped pulling, he never stopped jumping the entire time. The harness actually gives the dog more pulling power than a collar. It will not interfer with his breathing and gives him, not you the maximum control. even in "kerry's" Avatar you see what a harness is meant for. It is the best means to have an animal, horse, mule etc. carry a load behind it. The sled dogs in the Iditarod are actually harnessed to the sled. |
kerry wrote: Very control unleashed! I recognize all the terminology and phrasing, all I can say is I did this for what seemed like forever (maybe a year?) and nothing got better. I went to a focus seminar and she ended up over threshold, the trainer put the micro prong on her with a long line- the next time she did the same thing (when walking near a strange dog) he corrected her once - she did yelp but I think it was out of surprise (I winced) she reacted again (half heartedly this time), one more correction and she walked over to me, walked up to the other dog with the appropriate appeasement signs and sat next to me. It has only gotten better since then. I haven't read Control Unleashed, yet, but it is on my list. Sounds like it will be a nice fit with my own theories. I do not think you and I would agree on what your dog has learned from the above excercise. As far as the harness with the attachment up front, I have used it and really like it. Normally harnesses allow the dog to pull due to the design. Those newer ones do not allow the dog to pull, but rather turn the dog to one side or all the way around when the dog pulls. Much less uncomfortable to the dog than the head collar, but I find they do not always fit right, depending on the build of the dog. But they do allow for control in the event of a dog suddenly lunging forward. It is uncomfortable to the dog, but certainly does not cause any pain. |
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