Nipped my 5 year old
But, today when we went to visit she lunged and nipped at my 5 year olds cheek. She didn't brake the skin, it scared us more than anything. My daughter wasn't being mean or aggressive she was just leaning in to give her a hug. The breeder was shocked and said that she has never done anything like this before. My question is, is this a red flag that maybe she doesn't have a good temperment and shouldn't be placed in a home with children? Or could it be that she felt threatened or just doesn't know how to act around children? |
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| MAJOR RED FLAGS to me.
I am so sorry that your daughter had such a frightening experience. It is very possible that teh dog has a great temperment. My Dixie is a doll, very stable and you can do anything to here. Very loving....BUT she spooks very easily at strange noises and movements. She was not raised around children and I would never trust her with kids unsupervised. She has a very high potential for getting scared and reacting. Children are a whole different species to a dog. They are small, they cry, they scream, they move irradically, they have toys that make strange nosies....and they have friends who are just like them. And they like to hug. Generally dogs do NOT like being hugged by strangers. It is threatening to them. Unless a dog has been raised from a puppy in and amongst kids, and ENJOYS kids I would not recommend the mix. Even my Bosley, who is as laid back as they come...he loves kids and submits to anything they do to him. The other day he jumped up at my teen son and left him bleeding. Son was not careful, did something Bosley did NOT like and took a hit for it. How would you possible know what could trigger and adult dog, that has experiences to draw on, that you are not aware of? I am probably one of the few people who would recommend a puppy to a family with young kids. That way the way the pup is raised is the norm for the pup....Hugs and all. |
| I would agree. After having a rescue that I couldn't have around my children...our next was a puppy. My children were 8 and 10 at the time, and my youngest used him for a pillow. He was 12 weeks when we got him. This was shortly after my oldest was bitten in the face by a Rottweiler. He helped her get over any fear of dogs. She is going for surgery on that same bite next month, and the next week we are getting a new puppy. We lost Winston way too early due to the pet food recall.
A puppy is the safest way to bring in an OES into a family with young children...but they still need lots of supervision!!!! |
| Why would a breeder be selling a puppy at 1 year of age anyway? Was it a return... perhaps for being too aggressive with children?
I have a rescue named Stella who is a fantastic dog, but we got her at over 8 months old, and she has not adjusted well to small creatures (kids and smaller dog). But I am babysitting a OES puppy and he does just fine with everything because he's so new to everything. I'd recommend starting from scratch with a brand new puppy (12 weeks old would be the ideal age). |
IheartStella wrote: Why would a breeder be selling a puppy at 1 year of age anyway? Was it a return... perhaps for being too aggressive with children?
Some breeders hold on to dogs to show that have a problem that may correct itself, like a bad bite or something. Then, if it doesn't, they may sell it as a pet when it's older. |
| Thank you for all of your advise.
We've actually been visiting her since she was 7 months old. The breeder wanted to show her but was waiting to see if her nose filled in. She has held on to her for us while we have been remodeling our house and yard. Also, my youngest has never been around dogs so we have visited quite frequently to let them get use to each other. The dog has never shown any signs of aggression towards either of my girls until today. I don't feel that the breeder has misled us in anyway. She genuinely was shocked and upset by it. Over the last several months we have gotten to know her and she is a very kind and honest person. We've been around the dog so much that she already feels like shes ours and we've formed a great relationship with the breeder. But I am really upset by what happened today because it did seem unprovoked. And now my daughter is torn between wanting her to come home with us and being afraid of her. |
| I agree that you should be concerned but I would not give up all hope at this point. My suggestion would be visit a little more with your daughter, have her feed the dog (if possible) and watch their interaction closely. Does it appear to be an isolated incicdent or does she exhibit behavior suggestive of aggression?
Has the dog been spayed? I am not aware of aggression issue in unspayed females but at 1 year old is it possible that it is hormonal???? Tasker is the kindest gentlest sheepie I know and last week while at the Vet having blood drown he bit me. The first time in 12 years that has ever happened. My point is dogs are animals and always subject to unpredictable responses. I beleive that ALL dogs should be closely supervised while with children. There are so many variables that you might want to visit with your daughter a few more times (close together) to see if this was a fluke or if this dog just isn't a "kids" dog. My neighbors have a 5 year old and as much as I like the child I never leave him unsupervised with either dog. At five they just don't understand the consequence of their actions and if they have not been around dogs they need time and training as the dog does. Is it possible that your daughter made a quick move or some sort of action that was interpreted by the dog as threatening? I agree with Bosley's mom that , especially in the case of a large dog, the ideal situation is to get the dog from a pup. But your daughter will grow up and if you are willing to put the time and effort into supervising her and the dog very closely you may be able to get over this hurdle. BUT, if you do bring the dog home and she shows any more signs of aggression toward children I would make sure that the breeder will take her back. |
| I am so sorry that your daughter had to experience this scary event.
If that had happened to my daughter, I would not get the dog. I would wait for a puppy. If the dog bit your daughter instead of back away (which my dogs do if the kids get to be to huggy) Then I would say that is a BIG SIGN that this is not the dog for you. A dog's first defense around kids should be to walk away. My kids know if the dogs walk away it means they have had enough and they should be left alone. This was learned by both kids and dogs when the dogs were puppies. This dog may never have seen children other than your daughter. If this dog isn't sure about kids...what about having your kids friends over.....will the dog be not allowed to visit with the friends because you don't' want to take the chance the dog will bite again? These are things I would consider. Yes the breeder may be annoyed because you change your mind about getting the dog. But if she is really a good breeder she actually will NOT want you to have the dog. A dog biting a child is a serious thing. No matter what decision you make we will be here to help you  |
| I thought of this thread last night because of something Clyde did. James had dozed off reading a book on the couch. Clyde decided it was time for a kiss and ran over to him and smashed into his face for the kiss. It woke James up, scared the heck out of him and he thought Clyde has bitten him at first. I saw the whole thing and I was laughing because they both seemed very confused and Clyde didn't lunge to bite him, but I could see why James thought he was under attack!
Was this an aggressive lunge, accompanied with a growl or anything like that? Are you sure she wasn't just greeting her with way too much exuberance and nipped to play and no one was expecting it or saw it coming? Was it possible the dog swung its head with an open mouth? I'll tell you, I get hit with Bear's open mouth often and I thought he broke a bone in my hand the other day. It's amazing how strong dogs' heads and mouths are. I guess, ultimately what I'm saying is, if it was more a case like that, I wouldn't worry as much about the temperament of the dog, I'd just be very cautious and careful in dealing with a big animal around the kids. Just thought I'd stick in another point of view. |
Tasker's Mom wrote: I beleive that ALL dogs should be closely supervised while with children.
This to me is the most important point! Yet I am going to side with ButtersStotch here and put in a word for the dog keeping in mind the above statement from Tasker's Mom. Sheepdogs are puppies longer than most dogs, they are an EXUBERANT breed and while they are SMART they must be TAUGHT proper behavior. If the dog was not growling she may actually been going to kiss as in the incident ButtersStotch cited. Harry, my current sheepdog, has a much sweeter temperament than Mopsy, our previous sheepdog, did. But he DID NOT KNOW HOW TO GIVE A GENTLE KISS when we brought him home. We called it the BITE kiss and we had to work to correct it. Even still when he is too wound up he has to be told to be GENTLE when kissing and we actually guide him. Lastly, you might as well know that a sheepdog that grows up with the kids may not mind those kids since they consider them equals at best and the parents as the alpha. Your daughter may not be entirely able, at five years old, to control a full grown puppy. Good luck and keep us posted. |
ButtersStotch wrote: I thought of this thread last night because of something Clyde did. James had dozed off reading a book on the couch. Clyde decided it was time for a kiss and ran over to him and smashed into his face for the kiss. It woke James up, scared the heck out of him and he thought Clyde has bitten him at first. I saw the whole thing and I was laughing because they both seemed very confused and Clyde didn't lunge to bite him, but I could see why James thought he was under attack!
Was this an aggressive lunge, accompanied with a growl or anything like that? Are you sure she wasn't just greeting her with way too much exuberance and nipped to play and no one was expecting it or saw it coming? Was it possible the dog swung its head with an open mouth? I'll tell you, I get hit with Bear's open mouth often and I thought he broke a bone in my hand the other day. It's amazing how strong dogs' heads and mouths are. I guess, ultimately what I'm saying is, if it was more a case like that, I wouldn't worry as much about the temperament of the dog, I'd just be very cautious and careful in dealing with a big animal around the kids. Just thought I'd stick in another point of view. That is what I was trying to say, before jumping to conclusions I think the entire indcident needs to be looked at carefully. Children can startle even the calmest of dogs. Anyone who thinks their dog is not capable of resonding in an animal way in the right set of circumstances is fooling themselves. The safety of children is of primary importance which is why supervision and education are so important. |
SheepieMommy wrote: Lastly, you might as well know that a sheepdog that grows up with the kids may not mind those kids since they consider them equals at best and the parents as the alpha. Your daughter may not be entirely able, at five years old, to control a full grown puppy. My son was 5(my daughters are slightly older but they are more dog savvy) when we got Merlin. Merlin was a puppy. My son had to learn as well as Merlin that my son was in charge of the 2 of them. It is much easier to do with a new pup than an older dog. When we got Avalon she was older (5 months) and she needed to be taught who was in charge (she at 2 years old STILL needs frequent reminders) Faith we got at a year old. She minded the girls fine, but not my son, we had to work with both of them so she knew that my son was not a litter mate and she had to listen to him as well as the rest of the 2 leggeds in the house. Is there a specific reason you wanted an older dog and not a puppy? |
| This does seem very out of character for this paticular dog. Both of my daughters have hugged her before and she has always been very gentle and patient with them. Yesterday it just seemed that she didn't want to listen to my 5 year old. Taylor (my 5 year old) called her a few times and she would look at her and then either sit or turn the other way. We thought that maybe she just wasn't used to a little voice calling her and that it would be something that we need to work on. There were two other children there (my other daughter Alivia who is almost 3 and the breeders granddaughter who is 4) but the dog seemed fine with them. All of the girls were being very well behaved and we were watching them very closely. I completely agree that children should always be supervised with any dog and that they need to be respectful of the dog also. The dog didn't growl or bark she just kind of lunged at her and nipped. It happened so fast. It seemed to me that she was just annoyed with Taylor. Could it be that her ignoring my daughter was her way of saying that she wanted to be left alone? Should I worry that she just doesn't like Taylor for some reason? She has always been very loving and gentle with Alivia (and Taylor up until this point).
If it was an isolated incident and maybe we just weren't being perseptive to her wanting to be left alone then we still want her (we already love her). I'm just worried because to me it seemed that she was only annoyed with Taylor and that she was the same sweet puppy with everyone else. Taylor is gentle and soft spoken. I really don't think that she was threatening to her in any way. The breeder had already told us that she will take her back if it doesn't work out. She was very concerned about Taylor being afraid of the dog. She wouldn't be annoyed at all if we said that we weren't taking her dog. She even contacted us last night to apologize again. She said that her granddaughter had been around her the rest of the day with no incident. She has always thought that this particular dog would be perfect with my girls. I don't think that she would place her with us if she thought that she would hurt my girls. She is getting spayed next Thursday and we were going to take her home on Saturday or Sunday. If we decided to get her still should we wait longer? If we bring her home then how long is long enough to tell if she will do this again? Thank you all so much for your advise. I love this group, you all are so wonderful and supportive! |
WizardMerlin wrote: Is there a specific reason you wanted an older dog and not a puppy?
No, we actually went to visit this breeder and see her dogs to get more familiar with the breed. We wanted to make sure that an OES would be a good match for our family. At the time this paticular dog was just about 7 months old. We fell in love with her. |
| Unfortunately I think you are going to need to make your own decision on this, go with your gut.
One suggestion however, I would not bring her to a new home so soon after her spay. If she is not feeling 100% and is in any pain or discomfort it may make it harder for her to adjust. I would wait for a good 10 days after her surgery to make sure she is feeling 100% before bringing her in to anew situation. Just my thoughts. |
Quote: Yesterday it just seemed that she didn't want to listen to my 5 year old. Taylor (my 5 year old) called her a few times and she would look at her and then either sit or turn the other way....... Looking away and sitting are both "calming signals" where a dog is saying they are uncomfortable and want everything to stop or calm down. There are many other signals that they use for this purpose. She did one, and another one to further the communication. At this point she was showing some stress. Quote: The dog didn't growl or bark she just kind of lunged at her and nipped........ It happened so fast. A dog that has been corrected for growling or showing teeth when feeling threatned or stress will go to the next level. She will suppress the growl because she may have gotten in trouble for it before, so will no longer warn. She was trying with other ways but it didn't work. Quote: It seemed to me that she was just annoyed with Taylor. Could it be that her ignoring my daughter was her way of saying that she wanted to be left alone? .......
This is exactly it. Something was bothering her and she was trying to say "stay away. I don't like this" and then she got physically restrained so she reacted. Dogs generally do not like to be hugged unless they are very used to it. She was not receptive to it at all. There is a book called "Calming Signals" by Turid Rugaas that explains a lot of doggie commmunication. Here is an article from her website that might help to explain things. http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1 Unfortunately it is not possible for a child to read and understand this body language. An adult needs to be around to interpret it correctly...And it is hard, too, as they are often very subtle signals. |
| If I recall correctly after reading the statements, you questioned if this could have been an "isolated" behavior. It has just been my personal experience that dogs ususally don't have isolated behaviors, you can count on seeing it occur some day down the line. Of course, a dog behaviorist could help reduce the chances of reoccurance. |
| ANY dog is capable of nipping or being aggressive under the right circumstances. |
| We have decided to wait and get a puppy. We already told the breeder and she was very sweet and understanding. Thank you all so much for your help! |
| I'm wondering were the other 2 children there at the time, if so try to have them not there. The dog may have been protecting them from your daughter. When my kids were little same age these children are at. My moms dogs not oes though were very protective of my kids, the dogs knew their friends but they (the other kids) could not run up to my kids or play fight. Nothing ever happened just they would start barking and growling we did not live there but the dogs did settle down. If they kids friends showed up at my moms and we were not there they we good As thekids got bigger they stopped. |
| I'm glad you decided to wait... I definitely wouldn't go ahead and get an adult dog that has already bitten your child. |
| I'm glad you made a decision that you are comfortable with. To me, it didn't sound like the dog was agressive or mean or anything, but I think it would have always been in the back of your mind as to whether she would nip at your daughter again.
Also...one more comment. You said that you were afraid it meant that the dog didn't like your daughter. That's always a possibility. Dogs are like people in that they have their favorites, for unknown reasons. So there's no guarantee that a dog you get will be in love with both your daughters (not saying it won't like them both, but it could very well show some favoritism)... |
| It sounds as though you made the right decision for you.
OES as well as most herding breeds tend to be nippers, and when not taught it's unacceptable, nipping can be part of their play. Chauncey was quite the little nipper and it wasn't easy to persuade him it wasn't fun........Kathy |
| We were new to the "rescue thing" in March& were told that it would be VERY rare to find a rescue pup under one year. What's done is done, but does this sound correct? |
Anonymous wrote: We were new to the "rescue thing" in March& were told that it would be VERY rare to find a rescue pup under one year. What's done is done, but does this sound correct?
What's done? Puppies are usually rarer in rescue than older dogs. |
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