Monks of New Skete
marley wrote: I am reading a book called " The art of raising a puppy" by the monks of new skete [...]
I can't recommend any book by the Monks of New Skete. Their first book "How to be your dog's best friend" (I even hesitate to name the thing) proposed corporal punishment for a misbehaving dog. It was also the book that I chose to read when I first got my first dog. I have heard through the grapevine that they came out with a new version of that book which repudiated what they said about corporal punishment. I wouldn't know, I didn't read it. I'm not sure that my relationship with my dominant dog would have been different had I used a different approach. I got him at the age of three, so his behavior might have been set already. Since they have been training dogs for many years, you'd think the monks would have had their "vision" on how to train a dog down pat by the time they wrote their first book. So, I guess I'm saying "don't believe everything you read", "get info from multiple sources", and treat your dog with love.  |
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| Oh my gosh, Ron! I didn't know any of that! I only started reading parts if it. I read the part about discipline, and they recommended a scruff shake with a growl like "No", which I read in all three other books I've read so far. I think that's a very popular way of disciplining a dog, from what I see. It doesn't hurt them, but rather surprises them, and according to all the books, that's what stops the behavior. I am still learning and researching. Mopsey still jumps and nips when we play, and I am trying to teach her not to do that. When I hold her front paws when she jumps, she gets so worked up and she starts growiling and biting at my hands, and then when I let her down, comes and jumps at me again with a ventence! |
| The book that I read recommended hitting your dog "serious infractions". They recommended striking your dog with two fingers under the chin hard enough to make him yelp.
I don't know where my copy of that book is, but here's a quote from someone's review at epinions.com Quote: Now the strange thing with Dogs Best Friend is that perhaps because of the revisions or maybe it was like this from the start, but the monks seem to have a lot of negative enforcement. They advocate slip collars or choke collars, even going so far as advocating pronged collars, you know the ones with giants metal points sticking into the dog. They advocate whipping the leash to correct the dog with these collars on during training, which as stated in a few other sources I've read can be physically harmful to your dog. They also advocate hitting your dog, though only from below up towards the muzzle, never from above. That guy then went on ti give them a very positive review and recommend the book!Source: http://www.epinions.com/content_125585231492 Another quote about the book: Quote: * The Monks of New Skete book, "How To Be Your Dog's Best Friend," cautions: "Don't count on sprays, ointments, or magic saves to relieve you of chewing problems. White they may help to a degree, the best method of chewing control is early vigilance, a sharp reprimand, and disciplinary action.'
Source: http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/D ... ewing.html I don't know if they've changed their collective minds on these issues, but they certainly sent me in the wrong direction. PS I'm not against prong collar usage: I think it gives a very good way of safely and painlessly controlling and training a dog that requires such control and training. I used a prong collar in training our dog (somewhat) not to pull on leash (his hip problems finally corrected that problem, nothing I was successful with) and then Joan and I gave that collar to another woman who was having trouble with her dog pulling like crazy. But I don't think that they should be used to inflict pain. |
Well, I think I am reading too many books. Many of them have different opinions about the training approaches. From what I gathered, the puppy associates her actions with the experiences she gets from them. So, if she gets an unpleasant experience, she will probably not attempt it again. The thing is, how do you arrange an unpleasant experience with an independant puppy? Praise works, but not too well. So, if she does something I don't like, and then correct her behavior, then praise, that doesn't seem to be enouph. I don't want spraying her in the face with stuff like vinegar and water. Water doesn't do anything for her. That is why I am reading all I can get my hands on. She is a good dog, and smart, but very independant. Sigh. She is only 14 weeks. I want to give her more time and try some other methods. Now, I say "NO" in a barking kind of way, which really works for her. Thanks for the info. on the Monks. Go figure, hah? Priests malesting children, and monks hitting dogs.  |
| Hi Ron,
Is the prong collar the same thing as the Q collar? I have tried ithe Q, when trying to teach our 2 when they were pups to heel. It didn't have much effect on them. I always thought it must be all the hair. I gave it to my mom for their Rott. A few minutes after having it on, he darted after his shadow and hit the end of the leash and let out a really loud yelp. My parents stopped using it, they didn't want his neck hurt. My 2 never seemed phased by it and would pull me on our walk. Eventually trial and error prevailed and they do "fairly" good on heeling, better on some days and worse on others. LOL Stormi and co. |
Here's an image of the prong collar:
There's a ton of education that should be done on the prong collar. Stores sell them with no instructions at all, frequently just like a leash, just hanging on a peg. First off, the prong collar is never left on the dog, it is ONLY used during training sessions. The collar is fitted HIGH up on the neck right with the prongs behind the jaw and the ear. In other words, the leash attachment point is not directly above and behind the dog, it is to the side (the right side because your dog always walks on your left side, of course?  ) This is the area where there is just a small amount of skin over the bone. The prongs are not painful, but they are uncomfortable. A VERY gentle tug or any pressure at all on the collar will control the dog, and he will not pull.
Here's a very good page showing a doberman and his prong collar: http://www.leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm Here's an example of the education that needs to be done. The following page has pictures of the prong collar: While they say all the right things about the collar, I couldn't help but notice that the picture they have of the collar in use actually shows how NOT to use the collar. http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html |
| I used a prong collar on Pirate. Our trainer fitted it ,and checks it every week, since Pirate is still growing. I only use it on him when we are "working" (read training). When we're done, I immediately take it off, rub his neck and snuggle him for working so hard. He doesn't seem to mind it. And even though he's wonderful during our training sessions, once its off, he seems to revert back to his goofus self. The trainer had a hard time selling me on the prong collar so I put the collar on myself to see if it it hurt at all, and it did not. The prongs do not go into the skin. They are bent and only apply pressure not pain. Now...I'm really grateful for it. |
| I used a prong collar for training a friend's weimeraner... and I had misgivings at first as well, but I tried it myself, on my thigh, and it didn't hurt at all. The dog did great with it. |
| I have used the prong collar myself on a few occassions with my old OES Max when he was younger. I adopted him from the humane society where they hadn't been ablt to place him because he pulled so much. After two or three times he was (mostly) fine. In fact once or twice when he had been forgetting his manners again I would take it off the hook where his leash hung (not put it on him) and take him out - he'd settle right back down.
That said, my husbands Iish Setter behaves with it when it is on, mostly. But I don't think he respnds to it any better than he does a tug on the leash. |
| the theory behind prong collars is that it offers the same sort of reprimand that a mother would to a misbehaving pup in the wild, a nice set of teeth to the neck. it was recommended to me by a trainer, based on my belief that his methods were archaic i ignored the recommendation and since have relieved my puppy of his dominant streak, turning him into the dog of my dreams. |
| ED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Give it up! Tell us how you did that?????????? pretty please? |
| Hi Ron,
Thank you for all the information and the pictures you put in your post, that really helped me. I am going to do some extra research online and see what my husband thinks of the idea. The only "problem" areas we have is on walks and someone wants to approach the cute hairy dogs. LOL They both want to pull me over to the person and then not really jump but bounce and bump. If that makes sense? If a small child or even adult was caught off guard, their innocent bounce and bump is going to bump and bounce someone to the ground......also if visitors come we make the dogs settle and stay and then after a few minutes they can go over and greet, but they get so excited that they will climb in laps and give kisses. It is cute to a certain degree, but I want them to walk nicely over sit down nicely and then get pets and IF they are called up for lap time THEN they can go calmly up, not BIG BOUNCE up. LOL I am sure some of you have to picture what I mean. Anyway, if it could help with these areas, I would love to give it a try. Also on heeling....I call it with me, but anyway, I would love some more advice.....I do it this way....I give them all of the 6 foot leash and when it stops just hanging at my side, then I stop and say with me and they will slow to my pace and stay there for just a bit before walking a little faster. They usually never pull my arm off, unless like I said before someone wants to meet them. Anyway, any advice, and I would love to hear it. THanks, Stormi and co. |
| Dancer recently started pulling horribly on walks... I was thinking a halti or gentle leader might be best for her though because she had such a sensitive throat... although, she doesn't choke and gag anymore like she used to since I shaved her down... odd.... |
| debcram:
i followed the usual routine for ridding the pup of dominance. here's some stuff eat in front of him, then give him his food once you are done (less dominant animals eat later in the pack) give him food or treats only when he does the request (command) you give if he pulls on the leash, stop moving, don't go any directions, this teaches the pup that pulling only makes the walk last longer. most of the time, dogs only get dominant because we let them for one reason or another. there's other tips all over this site that saved me when i needed them. hope this helped deb. |
| Ed, Our trainer is having us "attention walk". Are you familiar with this? The upright walks, rapidly, constantly changing direction without regard to where the pup is...the pup must keep up. I've noticed a HUGE improvement in Pirate's attention walking. Do you think this is a valid exercise? PS...just love your pups nose!!!!! |
| Do you do this with the leash on or off? I've heard of doing this off leash with a young puppy to teach them to stay with you, since when they are young they really don't like to be left, but would you use a leash to teach this to an older dog? |
| I have heard of this Monk training and now I would use its book to start a fire! I lost my second sheepie Oliver to a nasal tumor it was right after 9/11 and it was a nightmare. I never saw an animal cry from pain before and we prayed as that was all we could do. After months of mourning I found a breeder via the OESCA and we got a female puppy, the dog from hell! I can say I never held this puppy without being bit! I used the positive method of training my other sheepie dogs and it worked this new breeder believed in shaking the snot out of a puppy and screaming into its face no the Monk method. That method was against all that I believe in after weeks of this advice and having the dog evaluated by a trainer and our vet she was diagnosed as aggressive. She could jump from the floor and grab my neck and bite it!!!!! I had a hole in my leg to the bone that lasted over 8 months. The vet and trainer said return the dog, she may be trained so we could coexist but she will not be that loving sheepie that we had craved.
I write this in all sincerity and do not want anyone else to have this horrible experience with a puppy. Think about this bundle of fluff who knows nothing and if is does not obey a command you hold it by the scruff of its neck and scream NO into its face while shaking it!!!! This can't be good we have shaken baby syndrome I wonder how many delicate pups have it, not all shakes by the neck are equal in strength. I use a book called Mother Knows Best please get it, Oliver's breeder recommended it and it teaches a relaxed way and loving way of training your puppy. When you tell your puppy sit and it ignores you what should you do shake the puppy by its neck while screaming in its face??? Or simply repeat the command and do this till your puppy catches on, I think a gentle push on their butt helps and when your puppy sits you act like it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, give a treat and PRAISE!!!!!!! Please think about these 2 methods of training. My dog now Oreo is the nephew of my Oliver he has the same temperament and when he walked into our home our cat walked up to him and kissed him! I will help anyone if I can I do not know everything about dog training but I know what works and I love the OES. I don't speak of my puppy from hell but if it helps I will the breeeder of the puppy from hell has had many other pups returned to her for being aggressive, you cannot get rid of aggression you can learn to exist with a dog that has this problem. That book Mother Knows Best is a great way to help teach your puppy to be a happy healthy dog! Sorry this is so long. Shaggydog@optonline.net |
| I have used the prong collar on all of my sheepie boys. It is not cruel I would never hurt my dog to train it. It does stop them from pulling now we have the flat nylon collar on Oreo as he has a buzz cut now and he still does not pull. Once again it is a tool for training and should be used correctly to make it work. No need to snap the leash and have the dog feel a jerking sensation a small pull from the dog and they stop pulling. |
| Wow-
I am so glad you all are responding to the Monk book- my husband picked it up when we got Chelsea and often referred to it in the first few weeks, he read it from cover to cover, and then I got the VHS tapes at the library. I agreed with some of the material on behavioral traits, instincts, pack mentality, but I never could reconcile with their behavioral modification techniques, it sort of didn't fit my memories of training my first OES. Puppies only aim to please, they want you to love them and respond to their needs, and yes, some do become aggressive. Right now Chelsea is very aggressive, she is a jumper and a biter. She's also a leash tugger, it takes time to train these things 'out' of them. When Chelsea bites we reiterate the 'no bite' command, you can see her actually thinking about it, her instict tells her to nip at us again, but I can see the wheels turning behind her eyes and about 50% of the time the nipping turns to licking. I think it's going to take another solid 3-5 months of 'no bite' and then praise for the licking. If I were to get in her face and scream at her, she would only get more aggressive. Dogs feel that emotional energy that goes into screaming and physical discipline, it creates fear and a fearful dog is more likely to attack back. I know the monks are respected for the dogs they train, but those animals are German Shepherds, what is the prevailing philosophy regarding differences in training from breed to breed? Are some animals more sensitive? Also - I was trained by my first dog trainer to use a choke collar, but to never CHOKE the animal, his philosphy was to 'snap' the collar when there was bad behavior, thus causing pressure to be placed on a tendon in the neck of the animal, causing a feeling akin to a 'funny bone' sensation, he was very adamant about not allowing the animal to pull the choke collar tight, as this did in fact 'choke' the animal, he always said to let it hang loose unless you needed to 'correct' a behavior, and then the motion was swift and firm, he also stressed snapping the collar in a downward motion away from the animal (not upward) What is the prevailing wisdom on this these days? We are about to start obedience with Chelsea and I want to be informed. As an aside, I was in a vetrinarian emergency room with my Penelope a number of years ago, (she was hit by a car! But that's another story, one I can laugh about now as she was not hurt) Anyway- a woman came in with a pit bull and the dog was wearing a prong collar, the stupid human that belonged to the dog had never taken it off and the prong collar had grown into the animal's neck skin, it was the saddest most disturbing thing I had ever seen, PLEASE do not leave those collars on when the animal is not actually training. Up. |
| I agree with Ron one million percent about the Monks and the prong collar.
In my experience, one of the most dangerous of the Monks' techniques is the "alpha roll" -- there are folks who try it with large dominant dogs and get their faces seriously bitten. I know there are trainers who advocate that method with adult dogs (like recently rescued beasts who need manners) and I think that's a recipe for disaster. Even though my dogs accept my alpha leadership position, I don't think they would accept being rolled and held on their backs without a struggle. Years ago when I first saw a prong collar, I was horrified (as are many folks). Now, with some experience behind me, I have to say that the prong collar is an excellent training tool. There are some dogs who will pull very hard against a standard collar or choke collar, and that can collapse their windpipe and do other damage. A prong collar gets a dogs attention very quickly, and in fact it doesn't hurt (try it on yourself). It does give an owner very good physical control of the dog. I also use a Halti for training (sadly all 3 dogs hate it around their muzzles but two will tolerate it). One quick tip when using a prong collar is to make sure you also have a regular collar on the dog, and hook the leash through the rings on both collars -- it is fairly common for the prong collar to come apart, and at least your leash will still be hooked to the regular collar. I mostly always advocate positive reinforcement training, but I realize that there are cases and reasons for using other training methods. (I do use Invisible Fence collars on the dogs, and I have used a bark/shock collar on a foster dog who couldn't be re-homed unless the barking was controlled). I just hope I can keep learning faster than the dogs do.... |
Well Annie Rose & I just finished up our first training session and yes my "Wild Child" passed  . After the second week, our Trainer did recommend the Pronged Collar for her and it did work wonders. By the way Ron, that's a great picture of one. The trainer put it on her the first night and for the entire next week I spent every day trying to figure out how to put it back on her. She didn't give me a direction sheet and I eventually called her and even went into a pet store to see if I could get the visual on it again which finally sunk in to my thick head and when I returned the next week, I had correctly conquered it. She did recommend not using it as a choker. Once we pulled the lead thru an attached it , she then had us connect the leash to both the larger rings together. That way it just gave them the message but did not choke. I felt like everyone else when the Trainer suggested it, like I was a bad Mom , but it did do wonders (not to say that Annie Rose is a perfect girl yet) she is a "Piece of Work in Progress"  . One of my favorite things we learned is when she is misbehaving and I don't have a leash on her (like in the house) I do put her short one on and (start with this one slowly if they haven't learned how to sit or lay down on command yet) step onto the leash and gradually work it back to the collar and they tend to lay down, sometimes not happy but eventually relaxing (you also have to ignore them when you do this). Keep them down starting for short period of time 30 seconds, the 1-2 minutes, and then eventually building up the time and it seems to make her think a bit about her behavior and she settles down. Of course it starts out with using her treats to get her down but eventually I only use them when I first put her down and then when I release her and praise her for being "SO VERY GOOD" . I do this one in the house without the pronged collar. I'm going to work with everything we learned at this training sesssion and then in February we are going to start back up again for the next session. She actually enjoyed it and looked forward to meeting all her new friends every week. |
| Raggamuffin,
It is so nice to see you posting again. I am glad to hear Annie Rose is doing so well. You are doing a great job with her! How old is she now? I hope that she is the star of the show when February comes! Give her a big sheepie hug, Stormi and co. |
| I'd like to add an alternate perspective. I think that the monks' book "the art of raising a puppy" is the best general-purpose dog training book I've ever read. The biggest mistake amateur dog owners make is to let their dogs dominate them, and I know many "monster" dogs who are never corrected by their owners. Of course, most of these people raise their own children the same way they raise their dogs. I think that the monks do a very good job of explaining that dogs need discipline in order to grow up healthy and well-adjusted.
Whenever we break out our dog's pronged collar, he goes wild with excitement because he knows he's going for a walk. When he was a puppy, before we discovered the pronged collar, he would pull against his collar until he was hoarse. Anyone who says these collars are inhumane just has no idea what they are talking about. |
| I am not sure why this very old thread got pulled to the top, but I will comment that I've read the book "Art of Raising a Puppy", I followed the ideas of very early pup stimulation/seperation that was great for Remy's pups. As for the training, can't say I am following their advice any more than another book. I have grabbed the scruff and said NO but I definitely don't shake them.. I do prefer learning humane ways to control the dogs, and I think we all benefit from learning as much as we can.
I am appalled to learn they used harsh punishment in their other books, I am not at all a supporter of that. But I did not know anything about them before. So all I have is this new book, and I learned some useful things. Just as I did from Stanley Coren's books, and the dog whisper, and going through obedience classes. We must all feel comfortable in the training of our animals, and learn respect for each other...create a bond of love. The only way to acheive that is reward based training. My two cents worth. |
| Holy Sheepie! This is all CRAZY! All I know is that when I get really mad, I start yelling (which is ridiculous...Gucci is deaf!) and then I point my finger at him, he starts running around like mad and thinks its a game! He honestly thinks its funny when I get mad! So, as inexperienced as I am, I do know that none of the violent behavior works! We now just take a time out, he hates that! And all is well!
I was really having a hard time thinking about a bunch of Monks doing these things to dogs! I guess I had a different idea of what goes on there! A lot of quiet reflection and walking in the forest pacifly...I guess not! Colleen and Gucci |
| Hi Guys,
I came upon the forum while researching the prong collar, and decided to reply to some of the posts on here. First let me introduce myself: my name is Charlotte and I run a positive training academy which I started in Washington DC in 2006, and moved over seas to London. In my practice I conduct mainly behavior modification training, with a special interest in aggression rehabilitation; in addition I offer obedience, puppy training, and on occasion therapy dog and sport dog training (agility, rally obedience, and tracking for hunting dogs). I was raised in a household where aversive methods were the primary way of training and raising dogs, but despite this upbringing, had a very eager interest in positive and force free methods. I own a 3.5 year old Golden Retriever certified therapy dog (and CGC) named Riley, who I track with for hunting, and am starting agility with. I also own a 5 month old Toy Manchester Terrier named Asher, who is currently in obedience training, and will be competing in Agility and doing advertisements. About positive training: it is not bribe training. Dogs that only come when they know you have a treat in hand, is not correct positive training, nor do you need to have treats on you in order to receive a consistent, reliable, and "obedient dog". I use the term "obedience" with caution, because a dog which does not respond to commands is not being "disobedient", "listening with one ear" or is not responding out of "spite", but is merely poorly trained or dependent on tools in order to respond. Keep n mind that when acquiring a dog, regardless of age or experience, you can only expect your dog to be a dog - and not more or less. If Fido comes into the home with a great disposition - wonderful! But he still needs training to be a well adjusted human companion, and it is the owner's responsibility to show the dog how to act in a human world, and how to adapt to living in the home environment. This brings me to my next point: the use of aversives and other tools to train and raise your dog. Aversive tools range from shock collars, prong collars, citronella sprays, water bottles, choke chains, and head halters, to any other aid which may suppress a dog's behavior. Most dangerous tools in my opinion are shock collars and choke chains. The reason being they can cause short term and long term physical damage to your dog. Prong collars can also have physical consequences if used excessively but are less harmful if used correctly due to the evenly exerted pressure when applied. But, be cautious of trainers demonstrating on prong collars on you - your thigh or arm is not based off of the same tissue material as that of your dog - I would love to see a trainer demonstrate a prong collar on a client's (human) neck. Prong collars do cause pain and are definitely not the best thing for training. Choke chains on the other hand, apply pressure to a single point, and in contrast have no limit to the amount of slip. A more humane and considered acceptable choke action tool is a martingale / limited choke / or no slip collar. This tool is based on the same principle as the prong collar (limited choke, pressure all around) but does not have prongs on them: they are commonly made of nylon with a chain bit, or layered chain. No matter what tool you may use, it is still best to use a regular leash with a flat collar or harness. The main concern (other than physical consequences) of using any other tool, is the suppression of behavior, which often resurfaces, and the breaking of the relationship between you and your dog. In addition, it is really difficult for the dog to understand a reprimand, and then being reinforced or praised when they display the correct behavior. Furthermore, tools do not teach a dog an alternative behavior, but merely teach them what to avoid *not even what not to do*. I suggest looking further into positive reinforcement techniques: mainly clicker training and the use of Operant Conditioning and Classical Conditioning. These may seem like big terms, but they are simple principles tested, proven, and guaranteed by scientific study. Learning theory (how we / animals learn) is the most studied field in psychology, and I wish more people applied these humane and force free methods on their pets. Zoos, and other institutions use these methods to train a variety of animals, and I myself, have applied positive reinforcement training on dogs, horses, and cats. Be cautious of punishment or "consequence" based training methods. They can cause harm to a dog, and worsen behavior. Also, you are not "teaching" the dog, or showing it alternative responses, nor are you guiding the dog - you are breaking an extraordinary relationship you could be sharing with your pet. Even if these methods have been successful, they put your dog under much undo stress. I recommend checking out The Association of Pet Dog Trainers, International Association of Positive Dog Training, Dogwise.com for books and resources, as well as dogstardaily.com. All these resources can supply you with information, listings, and further help on positive dog training. As for trainers like: The Monks of New Skete, Cesar Millan, Jan Fennel, Brad Pattison, and the multitude of other "dominant" or "alpha" based trainers who use intimidation and punishment techniques, I would be cautious of their principles. I believe it is a trainers duty to study not only your own principles, but also those of other trainers in the field. I have read a vast variety of books from traditional German Hunting books, to whichever TV trainer's have published and everything in between - are these other trainers really educated? What do they base their methods on? What is the legitimacy of their principles? Is there any legitimacy to their training? On a last note - know that you cannot take the position of alpha, and the hierarchy amongst dogs is a much debated subject with sadly little proof in the domestic environment. Even wild and feril dogs only have a loosely structured hierarchy, that is not identical to that of the wolf. And although our domestic dog may be biologically related to the wolf, it is not identical in social contexts due to domestication. Remember that your dogs are not out to get you and their intentions are not to take over - they simply need guidance, to one degree or another, depending on their needs, and your expectations. I hope this has been somewhat useful to you. All questions, commends, or inquiries may be directed to me by email at caninepaws@mac.com . You may also visit my website at www.caninepaws.com . Best of luck to all of you, and I wish for you to have a long lasting enjoyful life with your canine companion. Charlotte |
| my 2 cents duffy has been pulling alot tryed the gentle leader all he did was try and get it off.. went and just got a thin no pull trainer from four paws oh it works great and so easy to put on he steps right into it .. |
| I haven't read the Monks puppy books, but I know that they recommend such strict training on dogs with behavior problems. They also breed, raise & train German Shepards that are meants to be guard/attack dogs & police Kanines, which is why their methods seem so harsh.
I'm not "sticking up" for them, or agreeing OR dissagreeing with their methods, as I don't know that much about their methods.... I just know for a fact that they breed & train dogs that really NEED to have very strict obedience training..... Does anyone know if they state that their methods should be used for all dogs, because maybe they intend them to be for dogs with agression problems or with dominant behavior. I don't think they expect someone with, say, a poodle or a pomaranian to roll the dog onto its back and scream at them! I think this type of training is meant for large, "tough" dogs, like the German Shepard or Pitbulls... or something.... I'm going to do a little more research on them  |
rachael-1984 wrote: I haven't read the Monks puppy books, but I know that they recommend such strict training on dogs with behavior problems. They also breed, raise & train German Shepards that are meants to be guard/attack dogs & police Kanines, which is why their methods seem so harsh.
I'm not "sticking up" for them, or agreeing OR dissagreeing with their methods, as I don't know that much about their methods.... I just know for a fact that they breed & train dogs that really NEED to have very strict obedience training..... Does anyone know if they state that their methods should be used for all dogs, because maybe they intend them to be for dogs with agression problems or with dominant behavior. I don't think they expect someone with, say, a poodle or a pomaranian to roll the dog onto its back and scream at them! I think this type of training is meant for large, "tough" dogs, like the German Shepard or Pitbulls... or something.... I'm going to do a little more research on them Training is training is training. Tough dogs need good relationship based training as much as soft dogs. No dog is going to respond well to this "dominance" based training. not that dogs don't respect social pecking order, they just don't learn to respect it by cruelty. |
| Although it is four years too late to reply, there are many simple, positive methods to use with "aggressive" puppies. First, think about the pups as being high energy and distractible, rather than mean and aggressive. If you have a truly mean dog (that was abused or has real problems) then you need a professional trainer. I've been training for 8 years and only run into two dogs like that... and told the owners that I couldn't help. But puppies just need a little communication and socialization. I strongly recommend everything by Ian Dunbar and by Turid Rugaas. But in summary:
1. Walk young dogs for 30 minutes twice a day, because an exercised dog is a good dog. Some high energy dogs need to be run for an hour... before they even get going... 2. At the appropriate time before 12 weeks, socialize puppies with many different people and many friendly dogs... to give them some confidence with all strangers. 3. Teach the puppy to sit on cue - both verbal and hand signal. 4. If the pup appears ready to jump, tell it to sit. If the pup is pulling, tell it to sit. And so on. Praise extensively when the pup sits. 5. If the pup succeeds in jumping turn to the side. That is a calming signal that says, please don't jump on me. 6. When the pup nips - probably in play - then yelp ! Try to make the high pitched sound that is similar to when you have stepped on his feet. When you yelp, he will startle... praise him for stopping. He will then nip you again, but just a hair more gently.... yelp again -- Praise. 7. If he bites a third time, then yelp, and turn your back for 15 seconds. Praise him if he tries to lick you, or if he does a play bow... or if he yaps at you. 8. The first time you do this, he may not understand... so if he bites you a 4th time (it should be gentler), then yelp, and leave the area for two minutes. Try to leave him in an area with no entertainment, so that you achieve a brief timeout. But you must leave, don't put him into another area.... 9. If you are consistent about this process, you'll see significant progress in three days (puppies learn over the course of about 6 hours, so they may need to sleep on it, before they learn a lesson). And, in a week, nipping should be at a minimum. When they forget, keep up the lesson. 10. You'll have to reinforce the lessons during teething (around 5 months), after the pup is fixed, and around 10 months. BTW, I once tried an alpha role on my well-socialized 10 month old pup. When I growled in his face, he licked my nose and stretched so that I could scratch his neck and rub his belly... I think that is an appropriate response to an uninformed approach... - Hank Simon |
| I know the Monks of New Skete, have read their books, spent time with them and watched them train dogs. They're intelligent, sensitive men who understand the relationship and bond that exists between dog and man. This is not an order that believes in beating your dog, so let's be clear about that - particularly if we haven't read their books. The Monks of New Skete believe that the training and relationship you have with your dog is rooted in how you approach the animal - and let's not forget that dogs are, in fact, animals. I cannot tell you how many dogs I know, have heard of, have seen in pounds. on rescue lists and foster homes either because their owners abused them or because their owners refused to understand that dogs are animals. The Monks of New Skete are exceptional dog men and men of God who practice an ascetic life. They focused for many years on developing the best approach to training your dog and have been wonderfully successful. I trained my dog Heidi with their approach and her obit and biography ended up in German Shepherd Quarterly. She was among the finest animals I ever had the privilege to know. So before we start spreading rumors, lets' know some of the basic facts. |
| I wrote this almost 7 years ago, and I stand by my condemnation of it: Quote: Their first book "How to be your dog's best friend" (I even hesitate to name the thing) proposed corporal punishment for a misbehaving dog. If I recall correctly, they advocated hitting your dog under the chin with two fingers in an upward motion hard enough to cause the dog to yelp, otherwise it would be ineffective.It was also the book that I chose to read when I first got my first dog. I have heard through the grapevine that they came out with a new version of that book which repudiated what they said about corporal punishment. I wouldn't know, I didn't read it. Training their dogs is their business, I don't know if it is their calling. I just wish they had found another outlet for their ascetic frustrations rather than their dog's chins-- and then teaching others to do the same. |
| Ron, With all due respect to you, many trainers back in the early 80's, did follow the "alpha" thought of training...Through the years, they have modified their training techniques and now use a more "positive" method of training, with less jerking corrections and no longer use the "alpha roll" or the under the chin method of correction. I believe the Monks have modified their ways as well...I could be wrong but I know when I was training back then, that was the "accepted" method...Today training is based more on the relationship building between dog and owner. No more "alpha", "I am master", I am "pack leader" type training... Training has come a long, long way from what it was back in the 80's... |
| I don't need nor am I worthy of any due respect when it comes to dog training! I know next to nothing. I'm just saying that I wish they hadn't written that striking a dog was a good idea. It wasn't, and I wouldn't have done it if it hadn't been for the Monk's advice. I point this out whenever someone talks about the Monks because as far as I know, there are still tons of the old books still out there. Unlike other products, old books with bad or dangerous ideas don't get recalled. People need to be sure to know which version they are reading. |
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