Help! I need some Info
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| First thing that bothers me about that site... no name.. second.. missouri.. third.. staged "puppy pictures".. no real health guarentee..
IF you do decide to buy a dog from ANYWHERE.. get their name.. do a through seach on the internet for any references.. get their vets name.. have your vet call theirs and do a search on them too.. get references and talk to them.. research research research... dont learn the hard way about bad breeders..and sorry to say.. i wouldnt trust missouri breeders anymore if my life depended on it. =/ dont expect puppies to house train quickly.. no such thing.. Both are herd dogs so both have affectionate "herd" tempraments..herd dogs bark.. its part of being a herd dog.. Bearded collies and OES need weekly groomings due to their coats.. alot of work and excersice.. you state your youngest drives your lab insane.. you daughter might also be detrimental to any new dog coming in no matter what the breed if you dont help her to calm down around dogs.. any breed if pushed too far will nip or bite.. its how they put other memebers in their "pack" in place.. however humans see it as an attack and blame the dog when in reality it isnt the dog..your kids will need to calm down and "help" with any new puppy.. labs generally will take alot of abuse before they get fed up.. but a pup growing up in that kind of situation will more than likely have issues if you dont work on that..and you should consider how your kids will affect any new pet you bring in.. hyped up kids = hyped up dog and that leads to big problems.. i wish you luck in finding the perfect family pet.. herd dogs are fabulous in that role.. OES.. brilliant.. but do your research.. time doing that will save you heartache and a big vet bill later down the road.. I am sure the older members of this board will give you much more valuable information as well.. =) |
| From the description on your post and his website,
I would advise caution when selecting a breeder. Please contact the Old English Sheepdog club of America. They maintain a list of approved breeders. http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica.org/ If you have any questions about OESCA’s Breeder Referral program, please contact Tarja Koistila at oescrazy2@yahoo.com There is also a Bearded Collie club of America. Both of these sites have excellent information and people to contact if you have questions about a breeder. http://beardie.net/bcca/ Good luck and thank you for visiting OES.org. Please consider joining this forum as it is a great source of information and support. Proceed slowly and carefully with your decision and you will find the best match for your family! |
| I don't think your main concern should be finding a dog who will tolerate being pestered.... I think you should train your daughter not to pester dogs... then consider adding another dog to your home. JMO
To answer your question regarding a 1-year health guarantee. Basically, a 1-year health guarantee means nothing. Hips and eyes cannot be tested clear of genetic defect prior to 2 years of age. The vet can test them prior to that age, but will not certify them prior to 2 years, and will recommend re-testing at 2-years of age. It is extremely important to make sure you see proof that both parents have "good" or better (not "fair") hips test results at age 2 or later, as well as eye tests. Hips should be guaranteed on the puppy as well as eyes, infact any genetic defect should be guaranteed. Also, find out what exactly the guarantee is. Do they replace the pup but you must return your dog? Do they pay vet bills? Do they let you keep your dog, but also give you another pup? Do they give you a refund if you return the dog? |
| Considering the overall going rate for quality sheepdog puppies seems to be around $1000-$2000, I would be cautious about the $650 price. And if they tell you "We aren't in this for money, that's why they're cheaper" I'd be really concerned about that as well. It's just a line to use. And Missouri is the puppy mill capital of the US, so any dog from there you should be careful about. And often, when they guarantee a dog for a year, it usually just means if it dies or gets sick they'll replace it or give you your money back--but would you really want to get a second puppy from the same breeder who sold you a sick puppy?
Growing up I had both OES and Beardies. They (at least mine did) have very different personalities. OES are more fun loving and goofy, whereas beardies are a little more serious. Beardies are smaller than OES (generally--although on that breeder website of yours it said sheepies are generally 50-70 pounds...I think that's on the small side for sheepdogs. My parents' sheepdog is 75-80 pounds --girl-- and my sheepdog is 90+ pounds --boy--). It's hard to compare the two. I think a lot of people think that because they have similar looks (long, shaggy hair, gray and white hair, etc) that they are close in temperment. But to me they are very different. Both breeds can be housetrained fairly quickly, or it can take a while, it seems to depend on the individual dog. Some OES are smarter than others when it comes to learning tricks (or some are just really stubborn and don't want to do what you tell them) but just because they're goofy looking, doesn't mean they aren't smart. |
Hi Chrissy 
All I can say is listen to the good people on this forum. They are passionate about OES and they really know what they're talking about. As the new mother of a very sick puppy from a questionable breeder, I emphatically agree that breeder research is imperative. It is absolutely heartbreaking to watch a little puppy suffer... not to mention the astronomical vet bills. Best of luck to you in your search for your new family pet. You are doing the right thing by asking the right questions. |
| I would also like to add that I wholeheartedly agree with Barney1. At $1,000 - $2,000 many reputable breeders are losing money (many of them have day-jobs to support their breeding program).
In this topic below (link) we discussed the cost of a well-bred puppy. Scroll halfway down the first page to "lisaoes"'s post. She outlines very clearly the costs of running an excellent breeding program - one that focuses on health, temperament, preserving the breed standard, and improving the breed for the future. http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=11678 Reading that... I hope you'll understand why a price of $650 concerns us. If you have any other questions please don't hesitate to ask. |
| That site to me looks like a complete puppymill site. Run. |
| I whole-heartedly agree with Ron. That site is a TOTAL puppy mill. A few things really stood out to me:
First - they are Old English Sheepdogs, not Old English Sheep Dogs (one word, not two). On another page, they say "Old English Dogs". Little things, I know, but they just stood out to me. If they're that unprofessional with their site, what are they like with their dogs? Get your deposit back and RUN in the opposite direction!! |
| I agree with the others - this site looks scary to me.
As you search for your puppy and if you decide to go with OES, here is the first thing to check with: Ask to see the breeders signed copy of the Old English Sheepdog Club of America's Code of Ethics. If you go to the parent club as suggested there is a list breeders throughout the US that have already signed this. In case it isn't up to date, ask to see the breeder's copy. If they don't have this then they aren't committed enough to the breed to do important and routine health-care checks, just to start with! |
| Hi
I have not posted for some time, but I'm so sorry to hear of the puppies with Parvo. I know it has to be a great loss for new owners, and what can I say that already has not been said about the breeder. Guest--As for needing help with which kind of dog to get a sheepdog or a Beardie, I doubt any reputable breeder would sell a puppy to you at this time after hearing how your 5 year old harrasses your lab. Please do not take this wrong, but I would suggest you wait a year or so until your 5 year old is old enough to understand that a dog needs love and attention. When looking on the National web site for a reputable breeder, there are many listed. Myself included. WE do sign a code of Ethics but we do not have a signed copy, Tarja would have that. We get some calls, but to be honest most of us get referrals from other breeders, have websites, run ads in magazines, or word of mouth. I have an ads in two newspaper at this time because I hardly get a call from the national web site. I and other breeders have to compete with BYB, those selling CHEAP dogs instead of selling Sheepdogs. I don't drop the price of my dogs because I have way too much money into my stock, showing, vet bills etc. Guarantees--if you read the guarantees that are on some of these websites you will see if it is not followed to the letter it is void. Also if you have a problem, what recourse do you really have? Complain, take them to court? Are you willing to hire a lawyer in their state, go to court in their state? I don't know how anyone can guarantee a dog for 2 years. A breeder is only as good as their word. Health certificates--health certificates are good for 10 day from the date they are issued. If a vet checks out a puppy it may seem just fine, but in 8 days it could come down with Parvo or whatever, a reputable breeder would pick up on this, take the dog to the vet again etc. They would not let the puppy leave at all. I really DON'T think it would be a good idea to have a place on this site to give good or bad comments about breeders. How could anyone be sure of who is telling the truth. The breeder has to screen a person when they want to buy a puppy. The buyer has to screen the person selling the puppy. If a person was upset with a breeder because they didn't sell them a puppy he could say anything he wanted and that breeder would never know this unless he was on this site. My advice to those looking for a sheepdog is this, call those on the National web site, call everyone. Some might be breeding in 3 months and put you on their waiting list, but another person might have a litter with puppies ready to go. Talk to the breeders, tell them what your looking for. Price ranges vary a little but we are all in about the same ball park. Barbara |
Quote: I really DON'T think it would be a good idea to have a place on this site to give good or bad comments about breeders. How could anyone be sure of who is telling the truth. The breeder has to screen a person when they want to buy a puppy. The buyer has to screen the person selling the puppy. If a person was upset with a breeder because they didn't sell them a puppy he could say anything he wanted and that breeder would never know this unless he was on this site.
i agree that there shouldn't be a forum dedicated to this, but mostly because it would just be a hateful place to post since it would be constant debating. Not sure ANYONE has time to moderate that. However, I don't think there's anything wrong with people asking about a specific breeder (good or bad experiences). I really don't think MOST people would lie about their experience especially if they got their dog from that person, and the rest would be opinions, such as the ones given here. Without a place to do this, people are left buying from people they may not of if they had a place to at least ask. I just don't think there needs to be a forum "dedicated" to it. |
| I agree that a person should be able to ask about a breeder and see if anyone has had any problems, how else would we find out.
My post was my opinion on some of the posts taken from here and there and I just put it all into one. Everyone has to be up on what is going on in the world of dogs. Breeders give a heads up to each other about people who are not what they pretend to be. So yes we need to ask about breeders and buyers. Barbara |
| I tried using the OESCA breeder list and it was a pain looking under each state. Took forever. Other sites are much easier. Why don't they just do one big list so you can print it out and see everyone at once?
JMHO |
Guest wrote: I tried using the OESCA breeder list and it was a pain looking under each state. Took forever. Other sites are much easier. Why don't they just do one big list so you can print it out and see everyone at once?
JMHO I love the OESCA site! Its very informative and well organized, and easy to use. Guest- If you could print out one big list, I would have missed the fact that Merilee Rush (of 'Angel of the Morning' fame) is an OES breeder.  ~~~  GROOVY |
zahra wrote: I love the OESCA site! Its very informative and well organized,
and easy to use. Yes, me too!! They've come a long way just in a few years. They didn't even have an actual "referral list" when I was looking. I had to email to get a few names & then call them. And personally, I don't think it should be "easy" when looking for a puppy. Really need to spend the time to find the best one for you. |
| I finally rem. how to log in correctly.
I found it easy to access, does take a little time if your looking for a puppy to write down numbers if your going to call, but it is well worth the effort in the long run. At least if you get a puppy from someone on the OESCA list you should get something healthy, well socialized etc. We are raising a litter to keep something for ourselves, so the time has to go into the litter because some of the puppies will be going into the show ring/or performance ring, so eveyone has to be well adjusted etc. Barbara |
| cms425 -- After I re-read my post I thought I should expain myself as why a reputable breeder may not sell you a puppy. I sure hope you read this.
If a breeder sold you a puppy--new puppy plays, nips, scratches etc. we all know that an adult has to supervise most all the time when there are children. Puppy has just come from a home where he has played with his siblilings, biting, jumping on top of each other, very rough at times. Puppies see children a an extention of their sibliblings, they don't know the difference. If a puppy is harrassed by a child they in turn defend themselve, breeder gets a call, puppy bit child, temperament problem, but they forget to tell the breeder that the child just kicked or hit the dog with a plastic bat, pulls hair all the time etc. Breeder says send the dog back, I will refund your money, buyer says,,,oh we can't part with the puppy. Breeder give them all the advice they can, but that doesn't mean the buyer will follow it. Dog gets older, hates the child, child does something to the dog, dog bites, dog gets sent to the humane society. Rescue calls the breeder, breeder says I knew in my mind this would happen, sorry I put my nice puppy in this enviornment. Breeder takes the dog back, works with it for months to make sure it is stable once again. Breeder has to find the right home for the dog or keep it themselves. Breeder hears back from another breeder that they heard their dog produced a temperament problem, not true but.... You have told us how your 5 year old harasses your Lab so what will happen when a puppy arrives, doesn't matter what breed it is. Will you supervise all the time? Will you make sure the puppy is not blamed for something that might not have been his fault? I hope you can see where I'm coming from, a new puppy will just add to a problem that already exists. Please do not feel offended by what I have said, I just think you need to think this through. Barbara |
cms425 wrote: Ok so my family and I have been going back and forth about which dog to get. Will it be a OES or a Bearded Collie. There are things i like about both dogs. First, I love the long beautiful coat on the Beardie, but on the other hand I love multi colored eyes that you can get with the OES. Can you get that with a Beardie also? I also like the fullness of coat and cute tail on the OES. So I guess it comes down to this. After reading until I can't read anymore, I have come to the conclusion that maybe a Beardie is easier to train. I want a pet that I can teach amazing tricks, but more importantly can House Break QUICKLEY! The number 1 requirement is that they are super affectionate and have plenty of patience, not to mention that we already have a 110LB Yellow Lab that is old and not doing so well. The problem is that I have 2 girls and my 5 year old drives my yellow lab Chloe CRAZY. Chloe would never bite or growl, but u can see the look in her eye when my daughter is harrassing her. She is begging to be left alone. So I guess my questions to all of you is which breed will tolerate my daughter best, which is more easily trainable, which will snuggle lots, which barks less, and which one would do better with another dog. I would appreciate any feedback you can offer. I am already leaning more toward the OES, in fact i have put down a deposit on one. Does a male or female have a better temperment in that breed? It is a breeder in my state and if anyone knows anything about him, let me know. This is his link, so check it out and give me some pointers or share any concerns you may notice. he only charges $650.00, which seems to be cheap. Should i be cautious cause of the price? (http://www.shaggydog.clicksitebuilder.com/index.html) He claims he breeds for great temperment, health, and look. He does offer a 1 year guarentee. Is that long enough? He said he also guarentees their eyes, but what about hips. he said that they are AKC regestered unlimited, which i understand that to mean that I could breed if I wanted. This dog needs to be super loyal and sweet. Thanks for anything you could offer me. I guess my biggest question is after reading my post, which do u feel suits our family more?Thanks, Chrissy
I hope you do not get any dog until you can train your five year old daughter an animal is not for teasing. Really a five year old should know this and it is cruel to let her harrass your old labrador. Hopefully the dog will give her a nip one day and that will teach her a lesson. Don't punish the dog for this if it does. |
cms425 wrote: Ok so my family and I have been going back and forth about which dog to get. The number 1 requirement is that they are super affectionate and have plenty of patience, not to mention that we already have a 110LB Yellow Lab that is old and not doing so well. The problem is that I have 2 girls and my 5 year old drives my yellow lab Chloe CRAZY. Chloe would never bite or growl, but u can see the look in her eye when my daughter is harrassing her. She is begging to be left alone.
Take a step back and teach your child how to behave around a dog. You may have a very tolerant dog right now, but what is that teaching your child? The strange dog that she meets on the street, or at a friend's house may not be so tolerant. I know mine wouldn't be....and I wouldn't allow it, anyway. Dogs are not stuffed animals or little robots to do whatever we want and to take whatever we dish out. And you might want to start to protect your senior dog, who probalby has many aches and pains at his age, and should not be harrassed. All dogs will bite, if the threshold is reached. I hope your daughter doesn't get bitten and cause a poor animal's demise. |
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